The situation so far
Seeking something called the 'essence of frost' and forwarned to use "stealth, cunning, or diplomacy" instead of a frontal assualt, the party travelled to the Plane of Frost. There they met a group of Frost Giants who revealed that they were allies of the evil wizard Mangar. The Giants imprisoned the party, thinking they were agents of the "Ice Queen Gloiterwome". Under threat of having their heads torn off, the party bribed its way out of imprisonment. The centerpiece of the bribe was a gem artificially (and temporarily!) increased in size by an Enlarge spell. Semi-convinced that the party was not allied with Gloiterwome, they sent them to her lair.
Arriving at the lair, the party discovered that Gloiterwome was in fact a huge white dragon. Sent to scout out her cave, Flerm was detected. The dragon allowed the Drow elf to live only because he demonstrated a very low intelligence, leading the dragon to deduce that he was but a henchmen. She demanded that Flerm return with his master. Flerm brought Snow back into the cave, and the two entered parlay. The dragon revealed that it was from a clan of dragons that allied itself with the evil Flying Monkey monks in the ancient wars against Snow's Drunken Butterfly clan. Seeing Josy, it also indicated that it used to eat hobbits, and implied that it knew more about Vain that the party did. Gloiterwome also said that it hated the Frost Giants because they killed her babies and were immune to her frost breath. Intimidated by its presence, Snow agreed to bring Gloiterwome the head of the Frost Giant clan in return for the Essence of Frost.
However, upon leaving the cave, Snow's sense of morality began to nag at her. She felt it was immoral for her to attack the Frost Giants in cold blood. She returned to the dragon's cave but the dragon refused to renegotiate the deal.
Thus the party was faced with both a moral and physical dilemma. Was it right to attack either the Giants or the Dragon without having been provoked? And if so, could the party survive a fight with a giant dragon or a group of 30 Frost Giants and their pets, especially in light of the warning to not engage in a frontal assault?
By fnord12 | March 2, 2008, 8:44 PM | D&D
could we do a combination of enlarge and phantasmal force if we opt to fight the dragon?
phantasmal force won't do more than cause a distraction, but anything that would cause her to have more trouble killing us is good.
brecaryn, you haven't got that spell that can multiply yourself, have you?
Are there any rats to filet?
yes. yes i have all 3 of those spells that you're asking about. and just so you know. i also have 2 ice resistant scrolls. i did not mention them before due to there only be 2 and us not having a plan. i cant learn them, and i assume they only last for as long as the potions usually do.
malouf..there are no rats. but there is a dragon. and if we fight the giants, then their pets are..slightly bigger than rats. but that might be more fun for you.
I think we have a better chance of negotiating with the giants. Yes, I know we screwed them over but our heads were about to be plucked off and I'm too pretty to go down that way.
We need to find out if there is something they want from the dragon and we need to figure out a way to help them get it from her...in the mean time we get our essence. Oh and if we happen to bring the Cheiftan along with his head then well she promised us immunity so we get her that way too.
Did I mention I'm pretty?
it might be construed as betraying her which she clearly instructed us NOT to do. in which case, any promises of immunity would be nullified.
we could try something like polymorphing or creating an illusion on one of us to look like the chieftain. and brecaryn could give them the extra cold resistance. we could then pretend the chieftain has come to parlay a peace with gloiterwome.
although, we still dont' know what each side wants. they might just want the destruction of each other. in which case, diplomacy would be useless.
and also, how would this get us the essence?
Ye daft fools.
When faced with the option of killing Giants or Dragons, the answer is always kill them all.
well, hop on a plane and get your ass over here to do it. we'll wait for you at the portal.
We're gunna die...yup, someone is either going to eat us or pop our heads off. I wonder what kind of character I should be next.
I like Snow's idea of perhaps making someone look like the chief. It might work. We could say they are there to make peace, but the dragon might attack just at that. I still think we have to do some recon on the giants though. We need to find out what they're about and what their views are, especially if we're going to imitate them. I'm still curious to know what's west of the village. We're on a different plane, who knows, it could be important.
1. Do we know what this "essence of frost" is exactly
2. Do we know what either the giants or the dragon
3. Is it wise to take on either of these groups on
4. Does the dragon have some kind of mental powers?
5. Were the giants not impressed with our link to
6. Diplomacy is not our forte.
7. What's the geography like? How far apart are the
8. Do dragons find exceptional value in griffin eggs?
9. Remember when we took that t-rex with a gorilla?
10. Let's just jack up our most powerful fighter and
1) we have no clue what it is. we only know that mangar left us a note engraved on the jade disc machine to seek it out. once we get it, it's supposed to allow each of us to choose to be "defensive" of "offensive". i assume it's going to imbue us with something based on our choice. or mangar is screwing with us.
2) we know nothing about either other than they hate each other. the dragon claims they kill her young. we don't know what she does to the giants. the dragon will not renegotiate the terms of our agreement because we basically have nothing else to offer. all of our gold is inaccessible.
3) it is completely unwise to engage either group. but without knowing what the essence is and also with no way of making the dragon leave for a specified time, it would be hard to steal it. also, after stealing it, we'd have to make it to the portal and seal it before we were caught.
4)the dragon hasn't revealed any special powers other than of acute perception. i went back alone to try to renegotiate since i have a moral issue with killing in cold blood which i technically forgot when i first made the deal. the dragon's cousin fought against my clan.
5) the giants don't believe we are linked to mangar and say he had no son.
6) no shit
7) we had to climb over an avalanche that's unstable to get to her cave the second time. and if it weren't for flerm's ability to levitate, we'd never have made it down or up safely. the only other way we had to seal off because somebody with exploding arrows woke up the ice elementals in the cave. the snowy terrain halves our movement. and without josy's endure cold spells, Malouf would freeze. the spell only lasts about 9 hours. other than that it's sheer ice mountain walls and vast nothingness.
8) we didn't try to offer the egg but she knows something about Vain and there's the concern that could be turned against us.
Didn't I have an awesome extra heavy fur coat?
and where were you?!?!
1. We don't know what it is or where it is.
2. We know the dragon dislikes the giants because they kill her babies (to eat?) and wants us to bring her the head of their leader (which we don't know who, but we have a guess). It can be assumed that the giants dislike the dragon.
3. No. And I would like to convince you otherwise. If we die, who's going to ever make it back here and kill the red bull? We've come too far. Dieing should not be an option, but it will be if we do that.
4. We assume that it does b/c it knew Flerm was there when he was the first to go in and it is a dragon.
5. the giants did not know that Mangar had a son and did not believe us.
7. as far as we know, except we can't get up the slope to the dragon without going through a dangerous cave where we happily left behind giant spiders and gigantic snow monsters. Unless we use Flerm's floatation, we can't get up or down it.
Snow went up alone (nearly died) and wouldn't let us go with her. The dragon wouldn't renegotiate. The dragon's charisma(?) had power over her intitially.
10. I don't think we should even go near the giants. They aren't too happy with us and there's too many of them. If we can come up with some way to trick the dragon...but I don't know how. We don't even know what the essence is, and if she dies we might not find it. What if we shrink the dragon or turn it into something else. Can we do that?
Or...we might try to get the giants to fight with us to kill the dragon, but we still wouldn't know where the essence is.
Didn't realize Snow had already answered.
Saddens me to say it, but I agree with chyekk the gnome. We should kill them all. Since both sides die, balance in the universe is not disturbed. And if we don't talk to them we can assume they are evil and snow will not have a moral dilemma. Think of the XP!!!!
malouf - you apparently dont have cold survival. so even despite the awesome extra heavy fur coat, you're still cold. i think we're only slightly better off than you.
i agree with josy, i think we should focus on tryin to trick the dragon, although it will most likely be really difficult to do since we dont know her full abilities. i dont know if we can shrink it, being that is probably got some sort of immunity but we'd definitely need a backup plan just in case. i dont think we can defeat it, but if we can somehow distract her long enough to find out whether the essence is something physical we can steal. if its part of her, then we'd need her cooperation or actually defeat her. i think that even if we defeated the giants which is a longshot, the dragon may still renege on the deal and we'd still have to fight her. i'd rather not try to take out the entire village unless its not absolutely necessary.
i think the problem is that we lose xp for not adhering to our alignments/characters. Snow can't willingly go and attack just because she didnt' speak to them. that's probably even worse. plus. we'll probably die with that plan of just going in and killing.
Kill them all and let Lolth sort them out! Did I mention the XP.
Dragons are supposedly evil and the damn giants stole our shit. Giants are evil. Let's cut all their heads off. Those of us who actually lost goodies are more angry then those who did not. You know who you are.
I am awesome and can survive anything. ANYTHING!
Chyekk is a gnome right? He's got anger issues.
all you've got in your inventory, malouf, is a "heavy cloak". no mention of mink winter gear which is what the rest of us (except brecaryn) have. i think you might have scoffed at needing more clothes since you always run around with only a loincloth anyway.
or it was all part of your plan so you could have an excuse to snuggle with all the chicks in the party. i noticed you didn't huddle up with flerm in the middle of the night.
i thought he switched with me cause i had bought the same as you guys and then realized i couldn't use it and he wasn't around so i gave it to him. i dont know. i dont remember what happened. i just know i bought the heavy one and then had to switch..
hey do you think the dragon's perception is through smell? cause im thinkin if we somehow create an illusion that we're all there, and then in reality have one of be invisible, we could search the stuff, and she might not be able to smell the difference since we'd all still be in the room?
Sounds feasible, but wouldn't she notice if her belongings were mysteriously moving?
hehe well its not a complete plan, as i also have no explanation for why we'd be back there again.
Hey all you nerds, bow your heads for a moment of silence. Gary Gygax just died.
That's true. It's a start. I wonder if any of us happens to "remember" what the lare actually looked like.
If this were just a white dragon on the earth plane, I wouldn't be so worried. I don't think any of their stats are generally that high (especially in dragon terms). However, being that it's on its elemental plane and seemingly well fortified (thus, making it hard to get behind or surprise) makes me a little more cautious.
Is there any chance that there's a hidden entrance into the back of the cave avoiding that death trap?
what about the giants? what's the layout of their 'town' like?
The dragon cave curved twice before opening into a main chamber and there does not appear to be rear entrance. The giant village looks like it is accessible from one direction only as well. We need to pit them against each other in a fight and when they weaken each other we slay them and swipe the booty.
So, why don't the giants attack the dragon directly, generally? is it likely because they can't get through this treacherous cave? would we be able to get them past this, and lead them against the dragon? if there's that many of them they should be able to take the dragon.
Or at the very least, distract it so we can take the dragon from behind.
i figured the two haven't killed each other off because they're too equally matched. the frost giants are immune to the dragon's frost weapon attacks, so she told us. also when i offered instead to steal the giants' treasure in exchange for the essence, she said she didn't want them to come after her for the theft. so this means she has a fear of them in addition to her hatred.
i think she uses more than her sense of smell only because i figure she must spot her prey while flying when she goes hunting.
when we tried asking the giants for advice on approaching the dragon's lair (before we knew "the queen" was a dragon), they sneeringly said the path up the mountain was the only way unless we could fly. i think this meant that unless we could fly straight up to the cave, we'd clearly have to walk/climb. i don't think it meant there was a secondary roof/back entrance. but i could be wrong.
i also remember brecaryn exchanging her mink outfit for malouf's cloak, but i didn't see it in his inventory. and also, without cold survival, the temp is just too cold even with the winter gear.
Look although I am all for killing them all, I don't necessarily agree that the dragon is the one to be killed here. If anything the Giants are the ones we should kill. They have done nothing to lead me to believe that they are good. Fact - They led us to believe they are friend so we hitched a ride. Then they lock us up for over a day and steal our belongings. Do we know mangar to be good even if he is friends with them? Dragon has not demanded to our belongings or has threaten our lifes. She negotiated a deal with us, for which we agreed. And dragon also laid claims that these giants have slain her children. She's the injured party here.
mangar's evil. that much we know for certain.
I thought he was evil. Ok, so look here. Giants = friends of Mangar, evil by association. Their actions are indicative of evil. Kill the giants, problem solved. I can't agree to kill the dragon for no reason other than the fact that she's a dragon and presumed evil.
I think that white dragons are generally evil.
Nothing the dragon has done has indicated that this one is evil. Killing the giants would be the fastest way to get the essence. Snow - keep in mind while you deliberate with your morals, hundreds if not thousands are dying out there. The greater good as they say. The death of these 30 giants saves thousands.
Wow, where did Malouf get all this knowledge about the strengths and alignments of white dragons?
I know what you're thinking, but that stuff's all at home.
Wasn't the dragon the dm used a black dragon.
I'm thinking if we bring the giants up to the cave and kill the dragon, they will want to take all the gold and valuables. Which though we all love gold, might also be bad because we need this essence of frost and don't know what it is.
I think all of the dragon's senses are sharp, including its mind. Such are the characteristics of all dragons...right.
Oh, did we mention to Maulof that the giants are probably going to hate us because we gave them gold (which they forced us to give for our freedom), the problem being that we used an enlargement spell to make the items bigger and the spell only lasts 7 or 8 rounds.
I think we need to find out more about the giants and where they're coming from. It seems to make sense that they're evil if they're friends of Mangar and he's evil. But are dragons ever good?
Plus, I was wondering how this dragon is making these dragon babies? Yes I know where babies come from, but where is the other dragon that's helping out with this. I really want to know if there is anything else to the west of the giant's town.
Oh, and for those of us who want our valuables back that we gave to the giants, (me being one of them), did we forget that the dragon probably has much more gold and valuables that we gave away?
i know you have an obsession with maps and stuff. but what west are you referring to? cause the giant's village is the end of that little plateau. if you're talking west of the portal, then maybe but there was nothing east of the portal except that ice elemental, and i really dont think we're going to head back in the direction of the portal until we are ready to leave due to the slowness with which we travel and the coldness.
how do you all propose to get to know the giants better when they clearly dont care who we are and just want to kill us? we aren't about to go and give them more gold/gems whatever, and are unlikely to be received well due to needing to be escape the last time we met them. if you can think of a good plan to get them to talk to us civily, then im all for it.
I can't believe the following words are parting my lips...I agree with Flerm.
The dragon has done nothing to warrant her death. We asked her for the essence, she asked us for a head we agreed to the deal. She wasn't threatening our lives or stole my gems. We don't know her to be evil we just want something from her. The Giants on the other hand are aligned with the "evil" Mangar, lied to us, threw us in a cave overnight, stole my gems, threatened my head and sent us to our deaths through the caves to seek the Queen. I doubt they expected us to survive...in that we have the elemant of surprise.
So far I've heard three possible scenarios.
1) Kill them all
We have nothing to bargain with on either side because we don't know what there real problem is or why they haven't really killed each other off by now.
Since we weren't given a deadline by the dragon I think we need to do some recon...don't send Flerm...see what each wants from one another. It might be worth more than the essence to the Dragon or the eggs to the Giants.
If Alana wants to go to the West...godspeed...maybe she'll find a lost arrow or two along the way.
So are we going to kill the giants?
Kill the giants I say. They must be evil. I say we spy on the giants. We can use the invisibility potion. The only problem is that we'll leave footprints, we might need to send someone who floats...or who won�t leave tracks. How long does your float spell work for Flerm. I know it�s only once a day, but what�s the duration? So there's no way to poison the giants, can we make them sick or put them so sleep or something?
Perhaps we can make an illusion of many dragons someplace way from their village to lore them out (or scare them away). I can make rope traps...but that's not too helpful. Maybe a really really really deep ice pit for them to fall into? You know, with a thin layer of ice or something and they fall through it when they walk�yeah, but I don�t know how to actually make that. If we catch some of them, that could be a bargaining chip. Hmmm, we could even lie and say we found dragon eggs or know where the dragon is keeping her babies now (some place different), they�d be interested in that. Except what will make them list to us now that they hate us.
I dunno, this is tricky.
a) "kill the giants" is not a plan
b) we don't know that they're evil. we only know that mangar was evil and they were friendly with him. mangar could have pretended to be a good guy, or at the very least, not a bad guy. their code of "good" and "bad" could be very simple - with the dragon or not with the dragon.
c) even if they were evil, it wouldnt' justify going in and killing them without any other provocation. orcs are evil, but we stopped killing them once the threat was over. if the dragon and/or the giants were threatening others, it would be a reason. but they're happy to live on the plane of frost, igoring events in the real world. indifference is not a reason to kill.
d) we need to intimidate them long enough for them to listen to us, which will prolly require illusions of some sort. we need to convince them that gloiterwome even wants a peace. we need to convince them that we can actually pull something like this off - remember we aren't very significant in their eyes. and we need to convince them that we're not really secretly working for the dragon to trick them.
e) once that's accomplished, there's the task of getting the dragon to even consider changing her mind and accepting a brokered peace in exchange for the essence and our safety. it's very possible that both sides would rather see the other die than make peace. and then we're screwed because neither side really likes us and they could decide to get rid of us then deal with each other.
a dragon can only use their breath weapon 3 times a day and we have 2 resist ice scrolls.
if the spell is enough to protect the first 2 from dying, we only risk one person getting killed off from the third attack.
course, the dragon still has teeth, claws, and sheer mass on its side.
meta-knowledge! meta-knowledge! cheaters! damn slate article!
excuse me mr. DM as an elf (hopefully an elfish elf) do i leave footprints or no?
Depends on your footwear and the terrain. In most circumstances you leave a trail too light to be perceived by all but the best trackers. In heavy snow, wearing heavy boots, you leave footprints, although much lighter than those of a human.
What if you're a fat elf? Do you leave footprints than?
So what's the plan?
Intelligience 7 here! If no plan then we default to kill giants. If there is not a majority vote against this it will be considered binding.
no attempting to kill giants. we need to use stealth, cunning, and diplomacy. the three things we have no knowledge of.
I think we already forgot to use stealth, cunning and diplomacy, therefore, we should just pick either the dragon or the giants and kill them. Perhaps we could use an illusion to make the giants make peace with the dragon. How long do Brecaryn's illusion spells work?
If not....we can always kill kill kill...and probably die but hey, what are you gunna do.
I think you guys are expecting waaaaaaaaaay too much from me.
Reference from SuperMegaMonkey: D&D EditionFrost Dilemma Read More: Recap 16
Reference from SuperMegaMonkey: D&D EditionFrost Dilemma Read More: Recap 16