Hulk #410-412 (Pantheon)
Issue(s): Hulk #410, Hulk #411, Hulk #412 (Pantheon back-ups only)
They find Nathan - a young Paris - and prevent him from trying to rescue his parents from a burning car. This sets up the enmity that Paris will have towards Ulysses.
While they're trying to get out of the area, the Pantheon pick-up ship is inexplicably delayed. And then Ulysses is shot (by a white hand).
The final issue of this back-up series begins with Ulysses' funeral.
This is a bit random, but "So Say We All" was a phrase used in the 2004 Battlestar Galactica series. Since in BG they were worshipers of the Greek gods and the Pantheon characters are named after Greek heroes, i wondered if "So Say We All" was part of an ancient Greek prayer or something. But the phrase in BG was apparently just ad-libbed so it's just a coincidence.
Anyway, during the funeral, the Pantheon woman Andromeda (this is her only appearance) goes into labor, eventually giving birth to Delphi (Andromeda also used to have precognitive abilities). Then Achilles lies to Agamemnon, saying that Ulysses' last words were that Walter Charles should take on his mantle. Achilles later says that Ulysses always knew that Walter would replace him.
We'll later learn (in Hulk #424) that Achilles killed the original Ulysses on Agamemnon's orders. There are definitely hints here that the death wasn't just a consequence of the riot. But there's nothing here (or there) about why Agamemnon wanted the original Ulysses dead (in #424, it's just an example of Agamemnon's general Machiavellian nature).
Quality Rating: C-
Chronological Placement Considerations: This takes place in 1965, during the Watts riots. It could be argued that i therefore shouldn't place this in the 1965 category on my site, since thanks to Marvel's sliding timescale the books published in 1965 really take place in 2001 or something. But it could also be argued that "the Watts riots" are a topical reference that can be replaced by some other incident of civil unrest.
Continuity Insert? N
My Reprint: N/A
Inbound References (1): showAchilles, Agamemnon, Cassiopeia, Delphi, Jason (Pantheon), Paris, Perseus, Ulysses, Ulysses (original)
That "So say we all" really stuck out to me as well. Who says that?
Also, 50's = leather jackets; 60's = race riots. David wasn't really working too hard on his historical research, was he?
Was it ever established who killed Ulysses version 1? That gun looks kind of high-tech. Maybe it was supposed to be Achilles?
Posted by: Andrew | May 14, 2018 4:27 PM
I don't think this should be placed in 1965- Delphi is born in these issues and she's clearly at least 18 when she first shows up in Hulk. None of the other characters have aged that month between the stories published in 1965 and the stories published in 1991.
Posted by: Michael | May 14, 2018 7:55 PM
@Michael: I take it that you mean that they did not age _that much_?
I don't think that is an issue. It has been well established that the Pantheon members do not age normally, as best exemplified by Agamemnon himself.
Posted by: Luis Dantas | May 14, 2018 8:39 PM
Michael, i'm not sure if you're arguing that it should be placed earlier or later. I could see the argument that, especially with the sliding timescale, there isn't enough time for Delphi to reach 18. But if you do mean that much, it sounds like you're saying that this should go even later.
I agree with Luis that since the Pantheon members don't age normally it's not really an issue. They might reach maturity faster and then age very slowly.
Posted by: fnord12 | May 14, 2018 8:53 PM
@Andrew, as noted in the review, Jason implicated Achilles in Hulk #424.
Posted by: fnord12 | May 14, 2018 8:56 PM
Like Michael, I think the intention of these stories was that they would go into the Hero Gap, as Marvel: the Lost Generation would do a few years later.
Posted by: Erik Robbins | May 14, 2018 10:49 PM
I meant it should go earlier, in the Hero Gap, since there isn't enough time for Delphi to reach 18.
Posted by: Michael | May 14, 2018 11:26 PM
Michael would have been saying "no other Marvel Universe characters age that much in that time, therefore Delphi should be given more time to age up and this should be placed earlier".
Posted by: Morgan Wick | May 15, 2018 5:21 PM
fnord, I apologize. I really should have read the entry more closely before commenting.
Posted by: Andrew | May 16, 2018 1:42 PM
I'm no expert and it's not really important to me, but I have to agree that this story should go in the hero gap.
The Human Torch is not a member of the Pantheon, so I'll use him as a yardstick. In the publication year of 1965, he was maybe 20 or so. Let's say that in the publication year of 1993, he was maybe 29 years old, tops. So, given that Delphi was 18 in publication year 1993, she must have been roughly 29-18 = 11 years younger than Johnny (Johnny's age minus Delphi's age ~= 11).
In publication year 1965, Delphi would have been 20-11 = 9 years old (Johnny's age in 1965 minus their difference in age). Yet the Fantastic Four cannot have been in existence for longer than 1965-1961 = 4 years, and so Delphi must have been born in the hero gap, about 5 years before the Fantastic Four came into existence in publication year 1961. That's just my two cents worth.
Posted by: Holt | May 16, 2018 9:13 PM
The purpose of placing it in the Watts riot was to serve as a marker for how long ago this backstory happened relative to "now" - 1993. It's meant to be 18 years permanently in the past if you use the sliding timescale (1993-1965=18). 18 years is longer than how long the sliding timescale is supposed to be, usually somewhere between 7-11 years. Even if a bit longer, 18 years is still outside that edge. I agree with the others this should go into the Hero Gap.
Posted by: Chris | May 16, 2018 10:54 PM
Actually 28 years, but I think your point is still essentially correct. I jumped to a wrong conclusion in postulating that Delphi was age 18 in publication year 1993. Michael was only saying that she appeared to be at least 18, in 1991 (not 1993), which is close to the year of her first published appearance in late 1990 (Hulk #372-373).
Using the sliding time scale, if she was born in 1965, she would've been 26 in 1991, or 28 in 1993, which fits in with Michael's assertion, and still seems quite workable in-continuity, especially considering that she has the fountain-of-youth factor.
But this only strengthens the case for putting this story in the hero gap, because if she was 28 and Johnny Storm was 29 in publication year 1993, then she couldn't have been born in the same publication year where Johnny was shown to have been about 20. She would've been about 19 in publication year 1965, pushing this story even further back into the hero gap. Either that, or Johnny would have to be about 20+28 = 48 years old in publication year 1993.
Marvel time-compression is such a brain-twister for me. I don't know how you guys do it. This is the real reason why I use alternate realities to explain Marvel continuity in my personal head canon-- because sliding time scale math is too hard!:-D
Posted by: Holt | May 17, 2018 10:06 AM
I've moved this into the Hero Gap. Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.
Posted by: fnord12 | May 17, 2018 12:10 PM
My math sucks. But at least my point was understood. ;)
Posted by: Chris | May 17, 2018 8:42 PM
Agamemnon and Achilles notably have their heads down, looking guilty, and don’t have their arms raised in the “so say we all” scan.
Posted by: Walter Lawson | May 21, 2018 4:31 AM
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