Issue(s): Web of Spider-Man #31, Amazing Spider-Man #293, Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #131, Web of Spider-Man #32, Amazing Spider-Man #294, Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #132
Cover Date: Oct-Nov 87
Title: Kraven's Last Hunt: "The coffin" / "Crawling" / "Descent" / "Resurrection" / "Thunder" / "Ascending"
Credits:
J.M. DeMatteis - Writer
Mike Zeck - Penciler
Bob McLeod - Inker
Jim Salicrup - Editor

Review/plot:
I am not a big fan of J.M. DeMatteis. I find his dialogue to be lifeless and his plots overly focused on cosmic or new age-y minutiae at the expense of good storytelling. His Defenders run took a book that was Marvel's wildest (Gerber, Kraft, and even, in his own way, Hannigan) and sucked all the soul from it while failing to make it a fun super-hero book (which Gillis did). Even books where he was forced to be more grounded, like Captain America, always felt just average to me.

I seem to be in the minority on this. Most people consider DeMatteis to be one of the good ones, and that's before getting to his non-Marvel universe stuff like Moonshadow. I also have a friend who has spent a lifetime trying to get me to read his acclaimed JLI run with Keith Giffen and Kevin Maguire (one day, one day...), which, by the way, was beginning around this time. Because of all this, as i read through all of his stuff again for my project, i was torn between two biases; "ugh, DeMatteis, this won't be good" and "ok, what am i missing here?".

This story, though, is different.

One thing that immediately stands out as you flip through the pages of these issues (which i have in a trade) is how sparse it is. There isn't much dialogue. Thought bubbles are replaced with narration panels, and are also kept short. DeMatteis is willing to step back and let Mike Zeck (his collaborator on much of his Captain America run) tell the story. Another way of seeing that is by checking the Characters Appearing. It's a small cast for a six issue story, and on top of that, Spider-Man himself is out of the picture for a good portion, and the other two main characters, Kraven and Vermin, are crazy and barely verbal, respectively. Actually, both are crazy and barely verbal, to different degrees.

Another set of narration panels that runs through the issues is a version of William Blake's The Tyger poem, modified to start "Spyder! Spyder! burning bright."

The key background for the story is that Kraven's parents were driven out of Czarist Russia "some seventy odd years ago" because of the Communist revolution, with his aristocratic parents not adjusting well to a life among commoners in America. His mother, in particular, was said to be "insane" and eventually killed herself. And we see that depression as afflicting Kraven as well.

In many ways this is Kraven's story moreso than it's Spider-Man's, with a kind-of deconstruction of the character, perhaps allowing manic-depression to explain his honorable-yet-villainous past behavior.

DeMatteis doesn't totally get away from the mystical stuff here. There is a lot of talk about totem animals, with Spider-Man being the spider that infected and tore down the civilization that his parents belonged to. And with Kraven covering himself in spiders, eating them, so that he can gain their power and face and defeat Spider-Man in their final confrontation.

His actions seem to have an affect on Spider-Man, allowing him to mentally draw him to him.

You want to be careful with stuff like this; it'll eventually lead to things like The Other. But for now, it's all plausibly dismissed as coincidence or just Kraven's delusional interpretation of things.

One thing i have mixed feelings about it when Spider-Man first encounters Kraven in this story and is trapped in a net. And he first gets dismissive, saying that Kraven is just like those other villains like Doc Ock and the Vulture, and he's just going to take me off to some lair somewhere and talk his ear off while giving him a chance to escape. And then he gets really nervous when he sees the rifle.

I like it in the moment of the story, and i like it as a deconstruction of super-hero comic conventions, but i don't like it in the sense that it's elevating Kraven at the expense of, say, Doc Ock. Super-villains are only as dangerous and effective as they are allowed to be, and there's nothing special about Kraven in that regard. In fact, he's done plenty of monologuing of his own in the past. But it's worth remembering that we're at the point now where these conventions are being challenged, thanks largely to the works of Alan Moore and Frank Miller. And i like that, but at the same time it could have been done without this realization that oh, he's not like those other silly villains.

Anyway, Kraven does immediately shoot him...

...and the rest of the first issue is a near silent burial.

The second part of the story shows us that Kraven is going to be taking Peter Parker's place as Spider-Man...

...and also introduces DeMatteis' creation, Vermin, to the story.

Mary Jane is also in this place, but mainly to becoming increasingly worried about what's happened to Peter. It's a little alarming that she's not even sure about the name of one of Peter's main foes, but i do like that she's not afraid of a rat in her apartment...

...although she does get freaked out after killing it while thinking about how Peter might be dead.

Vermin has been hiding in the sewers since his last defeat by Captain America and Spider-Man (Vermin remembers Cap's name as well as MJ remembers Doc Ock)...

...and he likes it in the sewer because
in the dark no one can sssee you or touch you or tell you what to do". But he starts to work himself up to going out again and soon starts a killing spree; all female victims. One woman he doesn't kill is a pudgy black police officer, who reminds him of his mother.

MJ gets attacked by some rapists, but is rescued by Spider-Man.

However, she's horrified to see the amount of violence Spider-Kraven uses, and realizes that it isn't Peter.

I mentioned above deconstruction and Frank Miller, but it seems that DeMatteis intended this violent Kraven Spider-Man to be something of a reaction to Miller's violent Batman in Dark Knight Returns.

When Peter is missing for a period of "weeks" (later clarified to just two weeks), she briefly goes to Joe Robertson, but finds that she can't say anything to him. "Even if he does know -- I can't tell him."

This plays on the idea that Robbie knows that Peter is Spider-Man, something that has occasionally been hinted at but never confirmed.

Kraven uses his totem powers on Vermin as well.

The only thing scarier than a super-villain that is allowed to be successful is a naked super-villain that is allowed to be successful.

The reason Kraven goes after Vermin is because Vermin is a character that Spider-Man never beat alone.

So defeating him would prove that he's better than the previous Spider-Man and earned the power of the Spider.

Considering that Vermin is a DeMatteis character, it's a little bit of a self-serving plot point. I half-expect Peter Parker to shout from his grave, "Dude, i didn't beat him alone because it was an issue of Marvel Team-up! And if you look at the end of that comic, we actually took care of him quite handily!"). Nonetheless, it's a pretty powerful fight.

Kraven manages to defeat Vermin, and it's presented as a kind of resolution for him. He's defeated his most elusive enemy (Spider-Man) and proven that he can take his place.

Thus, with the story half over, we're ready for Peter Parker to come back. We start with something on the metaphorical/totem level. While Kraven was so focused on becoming The Spider, Peter rejects his spider side.

And he claws out of his grave.

Kraven isn't home, and Peter finds out that he's been gone for two weeks, so he goes home to Mary Jane.

However, he later goes back out after Kraven. The scene with him leaving MJ, with her kind of accepting the fact that she's now married to a guy that goes out and risks his life on a regular basis, is nice. We've seen this kind of scene a few times before - it was possible ever since it was revealed that MJ knew Peter's secret ID - but it's done well here and takes on new meaning now that they're married (it's also worth realizing that this is the first story to take place after Peter and MJ's wedding - which is almost a coincidence but still shows that Peter is a viable character after the marriage).

And now the Spider-Man / Kraven confrontation.

But Kraven won't fight back.

He makes the point that he's effectively won; he could have killed Spider-Man if he wanted to.

And that since then he's proved himself the Superior Spider-Man.

This is a moment of lucidity for Kraven. He's more sane than he's seemed earlier in the story. And his reasoning makes perfect sense for the character. Kraven is a hunter. If this story were about Doctor Octopus, the fact that Doc Ock could have killed Spider-Man but didn't would have different meaning than it does for Kraven, who always hunted Spider-Man because of the challenge it presented, not because of any personal animosity or because Spidey was trying to foil his criminal schemes. At the same time, Spider-Man could argue that he could have equally killed Kraven all the times that he's defeated him in the past, but the fact that he didn't is probably in Kraven's mind part of what makes him Superior.

In any event, the real confrontation that Kraven has in mind is a one-on-one battle between Spider-Man and Vermin, with the idea being that if Spider-Man can't defeat Vermin, then Kraven really is Superior. And despite his more rational voice, he still is pretty clearly not in reality, thinking it a "joke" that he is responsible for anything that's happening here...

...even when he releases Vermin and tricks him into fighting Spider-Man.

Spider-Man tries to reason with Vermin...

...but, something that i've always liked about Vermin's past appearances is that he seems to bring out a kind of revulsion in the people he's fighting. It's never commented on or specifically confirmed, but it does seem to be the case that heroes that fight Vermin eventually lose sight of their heroism and unleash primal rage and disgust against him.

Peter does manage to pull that back...

...but that just allows Vermin to get the jump on him...

...which "proves" Kraven's point.

With Kraven having found his own twisted resolution, he can see Peter as "only a man"...

...and even "a good man... How strange that I haven't been able to see that till now!".

Spider-Man goes after Vermin - who is after all a killer - after Kraven promises him that "Kraven the Hunter -- will never hunt again".

The second to last issue ends with Kraven committing suicide, as his mother did.

Anything after that should almost feel like an epilogue, but DeMatteis and Zeck (and i shouldn't neglect Bob McLeod's dark inks) keep the final fight between Spider-Man and Vermin interesting. Peter is still traumatized by his "death" and burial, and that's brought back by the claustrophobic sewers where Vermin is hiding.

And he also finds his own automatic wit "stale" and "stupid".

The battle continues with Peter fighting back his fear...

...and that fear is said to be the reason why he continues to hit Vermin more than he needs to, although i'd again attribute to something about that rat villain.

Peter eventually decides to redefine the terms of the battle, and leads Vermin out of the sewer and "into the light".

Up there it's easy to finish Vermin off and deliver him to the police. Spider-Man says that he's going to ask Reed Richards to help cure Vermin.

Let me briefly pause here and get up on my continuity soap box. I love that Spider-Man intends (i don't know if it's ever followed up on) to go to Mr. Fantastic for this. But it's the sort of thing that, when characters have problems and fans ask, "Why doesn't [hero] just go to [some other hero] for help?" the response, especially in more recent times, is that the stories have to operate independently of the larger Marvel universe and that we shouldn't let, say, a Spider-Man story get derailed by letting it easily get solved by someone from another book. And i understand that. I wouldn't have wanted Spider-Man to go to the Avengers after crawling up out of his grave. But it's little scenes like this, in what is otherwise a very standalone story that is well worthy of being put in a trade paperback and read by people that don't want to get mired in Marvel continuity, that have trained fans to ask questions like this. And the choice of Reed Richards instead of, say, Doc Connors, is especially opening us up to thinking beyond the Spider-Man corner of the Marvel universe.

Ok, sorry. Back to it. And really, we're just about done. The police had also been looking for Spider-Man after he seemingly became a more violent vigilante, but that is cleared up by a confession left by Kraven. So Peter returns home and ewwwww don't hug him yet MJ he's been in the sewer!

It's a great story. Critically acclaimed and deservedly so. It manages to easily defy my anti-DeMatteis bias. As i said above, i do think a lot of that is thanks to his ability to hold back and let Zeck do the lifting, and it's worth saying that Zeck excels here as well. He's another artist that i never used to love, despite him being the artist for the majority of my gateway comic, Secret Wars. Unlike DeMatteis, i have come to appreciate him more as i went through all my books again for this project. His characteristically unusual poses aside, he's a great storyteller, very good at depicting action. But he takes it to a whole new level here. And (faint praise?) it's worth noting that he gets through this entire story. Both Secret Wars and his Punisher limited series both needed additional help on art, but with this we have a consistent art team in Zeck and McLeod through and through, and it's really nice to have the whole creative team on this from start to finish.

In addition to a characteristically hyperbolic introduction from Stan Lee, my trade paperback has one of the more worthwhile essays that i've seen in a reprint. It's by Marvel Marketing Director Glenn Herdling and Editor Jim Salicrup. And it starts with some nice behind-the-scenes info. This story was originally commissioned by Christopher Priest, who was likely looking for more dark stories after the critical success of Death of Jean DeWolff (Tom DeFalco has also said that Priest was pushing DeFalco into a darker direction on Amazing, but that wouldn't have been a good fit). And it was originally intended to run entirely in Spectacular Spider-Man. But Salicrup, concerned about the mismatch in continuity between Spider titles that was happening under Priest, decided instead to run the story across all three Spider-titles. This also served to increase the impact of the story; it wouldn't have been as cool to have Spider-Man seemingly dead in this story while appearing in another title. The story was a sales and critical success, but one (supposedly) unintended effect was that people that were only reading one Spider-title now had to pick up all three in order to get the complete story. This was particularly a concern for people that had mail-order subscriptions to one of the books, since now they had to go out to a comic shop or, worse, lived in an area where there were no such shops (hence the subscription!). It's said they got almost 500 letters of complaint about that. The same format will be used in the Ann Nocenti Maddog story that immediately follows this, but after that Marvel backed away from this type of crossover until Inferno where it's said that they were able to do it in a way that wouldn't hurt readers of only one title (we'll see about that).

Another point made is that DeMatteis intended for this story to:

...reveal the timeless character of Spider-Man without needlessly "revamping" his origin. In fact, it was a response to the revamping of classic comic book characters at other companies that served as the impetus to create this story. Owsley wanted to prove the dogma that executive editor Mark Gruenwald is fond of preaching: "Marvel doesn't need to revamp their characters. We got them right the first time."

The rest of the essay talks about the controversy of ending Amazing Spider-Man #294 with the suicide of Kraven and how that opened up a debate about whether comics were just for kids who might see the story as glorifying suicide. There's no doubt that at this point comics had grown up since the Silver Age, but at the same time the essay points out that Spider-Man had been taking on relevant social issues since at least the time that Stan Lee left off the comics code stamp to do an anti-drug story.

It's worth putting those various things together and realize that while this story doesn't revamp Spider-Man, and indeed makes use of his newly married status, it does revamp or deconstruct Kraven at the same time that it's sort of a reaction to the revamping and deconstruction that was prevalent at this time. And like the Jean DeWolff story, it uses the death of a longstanding character to create some real impact. And while it's entirely successful in its own right, this is the sort of thing that people will take the wrong lesson from down the road.

Quality Rating: A

Historical Significance Rating: 6 - death of Kraven. Acclaimed Kraven's Last Hunt storyline.

Chronological Placement Considerations: At least two weeks pass during the course of this story, but i've kept the issues together since it isn't referenced elsewhere while it's happening. This has to take place between Uncanny X-Men #219-220, thanks to the X-Men/Spider-Man #2 continuity insert.

References:

• The death of Ned Leeds from Amazing Spider-Man #289 is referenced as a starting point for Peter's musings on mortality (Aunt May's, Mary Jane's, his own) prior to getting shot by Kraven.
  
• Vermin was traumatized after he was defeated by Spider-Man and Captain America in Marvel Team-Up #128.

Crossover: Kraven's Last Hunt

Continuity Insert? N

My Reprint: Spider-Man Fearful Symmetry: Kraven's Last Hunt TPB

A great story and justifiably considered a classic. However there are many who hate it and feel it is a symptom of the disease that would overtake comics from the late '80s onward ("the darkening" I guess we'll call it). Personally I don't fault stories like this or Miller's Batman stuff from around the same period as being the problem. It's the copycats that followed that were the problem.

I noticed you skipped Spectacular 130. I don't recall the issue but a quick look online at the plot didn't give me any indication it would be out of scope. Is it still to come or is it out of scope for some reason?

Spectacular #130 was fill-in that takes place earlier in time. It's on the 1987 Pushback page, but here's the direct link.

Yes, I agree. This is my favourite Spider Man story. I don't think Spider Man should be a dark character, like DD or Batman...but this story worked because of its presentation of Kraven. It was fine to do a type of story like this with Spidey every so often, as long as it didn't become status quo for the character.
It's wrong to blame a creative talent with good ideas who was able to write a classic story for later lack of creativity, originality, and talent.
It's also OK to have some dark and depressing characters and stories in the universe, if it fits the character...that's how I enjoy seeing Batman used, for example. It becomes a real problem when every character starts acting that way, regardless.
We can't blame a Moore or Miller for wanting the freedom to tell the stories they want, which have stood the test f time. It's the fault of short-sided editors with their eye on fast money and hack writers for thinking that any story that copied the basic formula would do just as well as the original classic.

Fnord, the DeMatteis/Giffen run on JLI is the exact opposite of this Spider Man story. It's fun and light-hearted.
Which goes to show that the 1980s style could be creative and different without everything having to be dark.

Thanks, fnord.

Chris, I agree with everything you said. Dark stories aren't the problem, even with a typically light character like Spider-Man. The problem is when everybody and their uncle started thinking the only way to tell good stories (or successful ones, if there's a difference anymore) was to mimic stories like this but execute them with a sliver of the talent on display here.

Those DeMatteis/Giffen JLI issues were some of the most purely enjoyable comics I ever read. They were so, as ChrisK says, lighthearted and fun, that when a character appeared regularly in another title besides being in the League, it could be hard to see this as the same person (Black Canary in JLI versus as portrayed in Grell's Green Arrow, with its angsty navel-gaving dialogue, for example). But this was not Silver Age fun. It was a new, very self-aware kind of wacky enjoyment.

I remember that being a dark horse when DC did its massive relaunch around '86-'87. Byrne was on Superman, Perez on Wonder Woman, Baron on Flash...lots of heavy hitters, but JLI ended up being a lot of people's favorite book. Having read DeMatteis's Defenders, I did not have high expectations for him on a team book. Just goes to show.

According to DeMatteis, this started out as a Wonder Man/Grim Reaper story, then changed into a Batman/Hugo Strange story, before finally becoming a Spider-Man story. It worked well here but in the next Vermin story, DeMatteis had Spider-Man dealing with the guilt he felt over his parents death due to a side effect of Vermin's powers. DeMatteis originally intended this idea for a Batman story, and it would have worked perfectly for Bruce but it merely reinforced the stereotype that Peter blames himself for everything even if it's clearly not his fault.
Speaking of the next Vermin story, when Peter next encounters Vermin, he's in the care of Dr.Kafka, and it's explained that Reed referred him to Kafka because he felt the answer to Vermin's problems was psychological, not scientific. So it was confirmed that Peter went to Reed.
I think the people that complained that this story could encourage young people to commit suicide had a legitimate point. Part of the problem is that none of the characters comes out and says that Kraven did a bad thing by killing himself. And the other part is that Kraven says stuff that a lot of readers would agree with, like that there's no room for honor and human dignity in today's world. Of course, DeMatteis intended Kraven to be a hypocrite talking about honor- while Kraven was whining about how there's no room for human dignity in today's world, Peter was paying for a funeral. The problem isn't DeMatteis's intentions- it's that he was too subtle.

I'm overall not a big DeMatteis fan either, but this is a great story and his Justice League run was fantastic too (one of my favorite runs in all of comics).

Do you really think a lot of young people would relate to what Kraven was saying though? I don't think so...I think young people would recognize that Kraven was portrayed as the villain, and that he's obviously mentally unbalanced.
Marvel made DeMatteis write a follow-up story called Soul of the Hunter, which was basically an anti-suicide story, but I never read that.
DeMatteis would later rewrite the first appearance of Kraven as "Kraven's First Hunt" in a SM annual. That story went further in showing Kraven's hypocrisy.

Probably DeMaittes' best story. He isn't a writer I enjoy. Trouble is, he did almost the same kind of thing later in Marc Spector: Moon Knight & on Daredevil. It seemed like he had developed a formula and was trying to replicate the success of this.
One trick pony.

Those were far lesser stories by DeMatteis. He certainly wasn't a one-trick pony...well, at least not doing this type of story. If you said "Hero learns a lesson about the power of Love and the Truth of the New Age", I might find it harder to argue with you...
DeMatteis' best work has all been totally different than this story. He did swipe this story for some of his lesser work, you are correct. But, he basically was just homaging Moench and Miller respectively on MK and DD anyway.

You've missed out the Published Date and the Title.

Thanks Stephen. Added it in.

I guess there is no accounting for taste. I found this storyline bland even by DeMatteis' parameters. It did not help that Mike Zeck was penciling, either.

In regards to Spider-Man going to Reed, he went to him last time with his symbiote costume (Venom). So, it's not unusual for him to feel like his main go-to guy is Reed instead of Doc Conners.

So, is it by a silent common agreement that we don't mention here that later on it will be Otto Octavius who dons the Spider-Man suit to prove himself to be the Superior Spider-Man?

That's why i capitalized "Superior". :-)

I thought as much, it couldn't be merely a too convenient coincidence, fnord. :)

It also leaves me terribly conflicted. Pointing out this sort of things for cheap points is a reason itself to go visit these old issues, and it feels almost a crime if you should pass such a chance, but then again the main point should without a doubt be these old awesome issues and very specifically not on how their signatory elements have been strip-mined and tidiously revisited by later writer to the extent that it's pulling down the original.

What I'm trying to say, good call with "Superior" here.

I grew up reading DeMatteis' post-Clone Saga Spectacular run, so he was actually one of my first favorite writers in comics. Having since gone back and read his Marvel Team-Up work, I have to agree that (at least in those older stories) he tends to let his personal beliefs and literary interests take precedence over the plot. But, probably due in part to those issues of Spectacular, I do still get interested when I see his name on something, and I still love many of his more psychologically-intense stories (like this one!).

FNORD - when you wrote:
"and ewwwww don't hug him yet MJ he's been in the sewer!"

But it's ok when she hugs him (and does even more "stuff") when he was buried alive for two weeks? I'm sure he smelled great then;)

Why is it alarming she doesn’t know (or just can’t remember) the name of one of Peter’s enemies? He didn’t necessarily tell her.

I throw the haters of story who hate it because it ‘led to comics going dark’ on the same pile as the ones who decry Gwen’s death because it led to Women in the Refrigerator. It’s like blaming Henry Ford for car accidents. It’s not his fault it’s the fault of everyone else who did wrong.

Additionally Watchmen and the Dark Knight Returns I believe preceeded this and they were really the benchmark for dark comics.

I don’t think Spider-Man should be eternally dark, but I think he shouldn’t be light and fun inherently either. He’s ultimately versatile and a very humanistic character thus he should be able to play in both worlds. ASM under DeFalco and Spec under PAD was the perfect compromise imo. Additionally whilst this type of darkness IS the status quo for Spec Spidey under DeMatteis there were 3 other titles providing lighter stories and a counterbalance. Plus that run was incredibly well written with immense character work and depth to it.

It should also be worth noting that DeMatteis’ second run on Spec in 1997-1998 was also much more lighthearted. There were serious moments, a bit of darkness and psychological exploration (especially regarding Flash’s alcoholism) but it was nevertheless more upbeat and positive than this or his first Spec run. It demonstrates his versatility and skill as a Spider-Man writer since that was exactly what the titles needed in the wake of the Clone Saga.

Also ironically I feel that currently comics and comic movies are swinging in the opposite direction and more agressivly pursuing light and fun tones. Which is both good and bad. They haven’t realised that each character is different and variety should be the norm.

@Michale: You are referencing the Child Within. I like that story and think it is written well but yes Pater’s guilt over his parents doesn’t work. Psychologically speaking he’d just bee too young to adopt the guilt. The Vermin and Harry stuff in that story though was very good.

I really don’t think this story encourages suicide for young people at all. Ont he most basic level yes there is suicide in here but it’s being done by the BAD guy who murdered people, buried a man alive and was very obviously weird and insane. If Spider-Man himself did it that’d be one thing. But that isn’t what happened as for those who took it that way they were taking a weird or overly simplistic reading. From Kraven’s POV he has won. Objectively though he has not but DeMatteis is such a good writer it got inside Kraven’s head at that moment and made you understand why he beleivedhe won.

Having a character come out and say it was a bad thing would’ve been overly clunky and horribly unsubtle.

In regards to honor and dignity in the modern world, again that’s coming from a man who literally ate spiders, buried a man alive, murdered people, tortured Vermin and had visions of being consumed by a spider monster. Meanwhile Spider-Man in this story, the protagonist we have been following, is showing Kraven how wrong he is because he DOES have honor and dignity and overcomes the darkness he encounters. So in the context of the story why does kraven’s word deserve any weight? One could just as easily argue Vermin encourages cannibalism.

So I don’t think it was too subtle whatsoever.

Whoa a lot of DeMatteis detractors here. I get not liking some (but not all) Clone Saga stuff but his other Spider-Man work is superlative. He is probably the most in depth Spider-Scribe ever given how deep into the psychology of all the characters he goes. He really makes them feel real. Plus...why is New Age sensabilities bad?

I mean this story is dark but unlike many other dark stories a lot of people fail to realise it is ultimately incredibly life affirming. DeMatteis tended to take the characters into a dark place in order to make them appreciate the good stuff in thier lives. Hence Spider-Man gets out of thatgrave and gets to go home with MJ.

To be honest...when DeMatteis is on his A-game as he is here and with Lost Years and with ASM #400 and Redemption and Spec #241...I think he is the BEST Spider-Man writer ever. Yes...better than Stern. Stern is awesome but DeMatteis didn’t just write great comic book stories he wrote veritable literature packed with layers and psychology. A lot of his stuff is downright Shakespearean.

@Teemu: You mean the overlong poor excuse for a rip off of part of this story done in a less satisfying and immeasurably clunky and delapitated way which instead of reaffirming Peter Parker as Spider-Man and as a character actually summarily undermines him in favour of one of his worst villains who was a pet character of the writer despite being a mass murdering, would be rapist, would be genocidal monster who nevertheless is give ‘redemption’ by the end?

@#TCP: He doesn’t let his personal beliefs or interests take over the plot more than any other writer does, outside of the whole Judas Traveller thing. He approached Spider-Man in a more psychological way, which is entirely justified for any character, especially one so introspective as Peter Parker. his literary interests in Russian literature was just an influence on his work the way Moby Dick influenced Stan. He does have personal beliefs that appear in his work but it’s rarely if ever at the expense of the plot or characters. He always puts those ahead of anything else. E.g. he writes Peter, Kraven and Vermin honestly from their own POV, he obviously doesn’t agree with everything each of them do or hold to their beliefs.

He really isn’t a writer deserving of even half the criticism he gets, at least in regards to Spider-Man.

@Al: I can get behind that summation. Having since read a lot of DeMatteis' pre-Clone Saga work on Spectacular, I no longer feel the need to qualify calling him one of my favorite Spider-writers. His run on Marvel Team-Up is still spotty at best, though.

@TCP: I agree, although I think his White Rabbit issue in Spec was funny. She is actually maybe my favourite female Spider-Man villain (I count Felicia as morally grey more than a villain) because she is just nuts, sort of Spidey's Harley Quinn.

As for the rest of his run though...its Marvel Team-Up. At best it barely qualifies as a Spider-Man title, one which is only really important because other titles chose to take pieces of continuity from it in better directions. E.g. MTU had Spidey meet Vermin and it introduced US audiences to Captain Britian. It was just a promotional title for other characters to ride the coattails of Spider-Man's popularity.

I'm surprised you didn't bring up the dream sequence with Ned Leeds. Peter is haunted by his recent death. It seemed weird at the time of publication, because at this point, Peter thinks Ned was the Hobgoblin, so I'm not really sure how that sequence was supposed to work.

@AI- her not remembering Ock's name is weird because Ock was responsible for the death of Gwen Stacy's father, and since MJ knew Gwen at the time, you'd think she'd remember.

Captain Stacy sacrificed himself to save an innocent in an incident Gwen and to an extent the Bugle blamed on Spider-Man. The blaming of Ock for George’s death is one of those fandom truisms, sort of like how the Alien Costume made Spider-Man evil. I can see where you are coming from though, although meh...brainfart. Plus that was years and years ago and she has got other things on her mind in the scene in question.

The Alien Costume making Peter evil is something that never actually happened. The reason why fans blame Ock for George Stacy's death is because the whole incident would have never happened if Ock hadn't been trying to kill Peter.

That’s like blaming Henry Ford for a car accident. Otto is evil but he wasn’t responsible for George’s death. George died due to his own decisions and his own agency. Blaming Otto for his death is thus illogical and you could just as easily blame Peter for making Otto lose control or the kid for standing there or the parents for not looking after the kid.

At the same time many fans directly blame Otto. As in ‘he killed Captain Stacy’. He didn’t. He didn’t even pull a Green Goblin wherein he knocked Gwen off the bridge but that wasn’t what directly killed her. Through no fault of his own he lost control of his arms and then that caused rubble to fall, there happened to be a kid there and George happened to see and happened to sacrifice himself to save the kid. At that point it is not Doc Ock’s fault at all, it’s an act of self-sacrifice/an accident

That's like blaming Henry Ford for a car accident, if Henry Ford was trying to run someone over and then lost control & ran someone else over.

It's the Felony Murder rule, Al - Stacy wouldn't have died if not for Doc Ock's actions in commission of a serious crime, thus Ock is legally (and ethically) guilty of his murder. Michael has it right.

Otto wasn’t trying to kill George or in fact anyone.

He was committing another crime.

Peter made his arms go out of control

That caused damage that then caused George to give his own life to save someone else’s.

Maybe legally he would be technically to blame.

But no ethically it was not his fault. Blaming him equates to blaming Peter. If Peter hadn’t got in his way or made his arms go out of control in the course of breaking the law by being a vigilante then George wouldn’t have died. But it wasn’t Peter’s fault either.

Murder requires intent to kill. Otto had no intent. It’s entirely different to say the Goblin and Gwen wherein he intended to kill her but the scenario wound up at the same ends though a different means he set into motion. Norman did the equivalent of pushing someone in front of a moving car.

Otto did the equivalent of be blinded by a car and without intent was set on a collision course with a bystander who was saved by a third party who consequently died. George sacrificed himself to save someone from what was ostensibly an accident which Otto had no intent or control over. It’d be different if Otto had controland created the rubble. Or if the rubble hit George himself sans saving the kid. But it was out of Ock’s hands. He wasn’t to blame for that. Certainly not in the same light many fans paint him in wherein it’s like a major kudos point on his villain record. “Green Goblin killed Gwen.” “Oh yeah well Doc Ock killed Captain Stacy, that makes it personal!”

I believe Peter was not guilty of a felony in that affair. It's a good rule, to hold outlaws responsible for collateral damage - makes more ethical sense than a lot of laws...

@BU @Al Ock's crime as you describe it would probably be considered Aggravated Manslaughter - murder wasn't the intent, but it was a direct consequence of certain negligent actions:

http://plotnicklawfirm.com/st.-petersburg-tampa-bay-fl-manslaughter-and-aggravated-manslaughter-lawyer_pa17565.htm

Doc Ock didn't murder CPT Stacey. He created a situation where many people would/could die, and CPT Stacey sacrificed himself. There's a valid reason to blame Ock - without him, George Stacey would still be alive - and a valid reason not to - it's not like Ock personally tried to kill CPT Stacey.

I think this story is as good as Marvel gets, trying to make the characters dark. It's a good "dark" story and it's a good Spider-Man story. It works because of the lighter moments. Peter coming home to Mary Jane is one of the best superhero scenes ever, even if you're completely opposed to their marriage. That's MJ, that's Peter, that's a wonderful moment for them just before the big fight. It's not sustainable in the long run, but a very good Spider-Man story.

Was he not breaking the law by virtue of being a vigilante and causing property damage? Property damage which consequently led to the death of Captain Stacy? I don’t hold him ethically resposnsible but by extension we can’t hold Otto responsible either.

Yeah, but without Spider-Man he’d still be alive as well. He also would be alive if not for HIS OWN actions, or the kid’s actions. And again the primary reason for why rubble was falling was because Peter MADE Otto lose control.

Therefore it isn’t right to pin blame on him the way we pin blame on Norman for Gwen or on the Joker for Jason Todd etc.

@ChrisW: What isn’t sustainable? The dark tone?

How well I remember this. Still one of the greatest storylines that Marvel has ever done.

I remember being at my cousins' in San Diego in the summer of 87 when this came out and buying it at a local 7-11. With big collections of the Avengers and X-books, I rarely strayed to other things. But it was so clear from the start that was something beyond special, both in the writing, and in the art (I'd love to see some original art because the inks look so good on here, I'd be curious to see what it looks like without the inks).

I still can't decide if this is my favorite Spider-Man story, but I think it probably is, even out-ranking the Death of Gwen Stacy, the Death of Jean DeWolff and Spider-Man: Blue.

Yeah, the dark tone isn't sustainable. With rare exceptions like this story or the "Death of Jean DeWolf" the darkness simply doesn't work for a Spider-Man story.

Spidey's a character who can work in complicated ethical situations - 'who's truly to blame for Captain Stacey's death?' being a good example where there are great arguments for all sides - but it wasn't a story which reached the mid/late-80s level of darkness here. And even here, it wasn't a regular thing, nor did those earlier stories [CPT Stacey's death, Gwen's death] have the tone that DeMatteis and Zeck achieve so well here.

Regarding the very dark nature of "Kraven's Last Hunt," here is what I wrote when I reviewed it on my blog...

Although “Kraven’s Last Hunt” superficially resembles the “grim and gritty” comic books coming to the forefront in the mid-1980s, it really did not fall into that category. It was actually the act of dropping the character of Spider-Man into a story along the lines of Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns and seeing what happens. And what occurred was Spider-Man stayed true to himself. Peter wasn’t driven by revenge to dig his way out of his grave, but by love for his wife. As Salicrup observes, it is a scene that very much parallels the classic Amazing Spider-Man #33 by Steve Ditko & Stan Lee, when Spider-Man, trapped under a mountain of wrecked machinery, struggles to lift it up, knowing that he is the only one who can bring a life-saving serum to Aunt May, who lies dying. And, despite his traumatic experiences and the temptation to kill Kraven, Spider-Man does not emerge swearing to wreck brutal vengeance, but wishing to bring his foe to justice. Finally, when Spider-Man himself must stop Vermin, an opponent Kraven defeated by brute force, the web-slinger does not descend to the level of the Hunter. Instead, he tries to reach out to Vermin with empathy & understanding, and to use intelligence to outwit him.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare it to "ASM" #33, but your point is very well taken that the story may be dark, but Spider-Man himself does not become dark. At the beginning, he stops to drop off some money so Joe Face can have a decent box and a piece of ground. He doesn't even like or respect the guy and he shows common decency.

He does lose his temper with Vermin and Kraven, but it's entirely understandable under the circumstances. The fact that it can be accurately described as "losing his temper" and regaining it quickly sets him apart. We saw what a "Spider-Man" who lost control would be like when Kraven captured Vermin in the first place, both of them growling and clawing at each other. The story doesn't end with him chasing Vermin out of a need for vengeance or anything like that, but Vermin is a menace who needs to be stopped as soon as possible, and the first thing Spidey does after stopping Vermin is to promise to get him help.

The story is dark. Spider-Man isn't. And reality aside - he's been buried for two weeks and doesn't shower first? - the reunion with MJ is one of the sweetest, most sentimental moments I can think of in comic books.

The most remarkable part of this story to me is definitely the MJ-Robertson scene. I always like hints that Robbie knows Peter's secret (the most noteworthy being in Peter Parker #90, but there is also Amazing #196).

For the most part, Kraven's Hunt leaves me cold, wondering what is all the buzz about. But that scene reminds us of this long standing little part of Spidey lore, and goes a bit further by implying that MJ realizes or suspects it somehow.

This is a great story, although at the time and even now I feel the character of Kraven is not the same character that was introduced in ASM #15 so long ago. Now that I read from one of the above comments that DeMatteis had an idea for a story and played with it using several characters (Wonder Man & Grim Reaper, Batman & Hugo Strange), I know why that is. The original Ditko character was very cool in my opinion, but after his first appearances under Ditko, the character lost that and became a generic villain. So while this is a good send off for a classic character, it is still too bad it isn't actually the character Ditko created.

As for the MJ-Robbie scene, I know several fans who believe Robbie has known Peter's secret for a long time. They take it to be one of those things the reader just isn't told outright, much like how Magneto was the father of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch became a Marvel policy for several years before it was made explicit.

The idea that Robbie knows or suspects who Spider-Man is, in my opinion, should be one of those things that is never answered one way or the other, and this scene is a perfect example of why. A clearly distraught MJ goes to the one person that, consciously or otherwise, she thinks she might be able to talk to about this, and Robbie is obviously there to help, but she can't get any words out. She can't tell him.

I don't think Robbie knew Peter was missing (he asks "Is something wrong with Peter?") and one would think MJ would ask later, in a happier moment, 'so does Robbie know who you are?' but that way lies madness. Maybe this example is coloring my impression, but I think the ambiguity works much better.

I love that scene in the net, I mean to me it's not deminishing the other, theoretically much more dangerous, villains, to me it's showing how by facing huge danger after huge danger, Peter is now overconfident, and that confidence almost resulted in his death. It's appropriate to me, very human.

On a different note, how can MJ freaking hit a rat directly?? Do you know what kind of reflexes they have? Wait, could this be a sign... that she's a mutant?!

"...but, something that i've always liked about Vermin's past appearances is that he seems to bring out a kind of revulsion in the people he's fighting. It's never commented on or specifically confirmed, but it does seem to be the case that heroes that fight Vermin eventually lose sight of their heroism and unleash primal rage and disgust against him"
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They actually went into that in the first part of the "Child Within" six parter; that Vermin brings out the very worse in people, Peter in particular due to him associating Vermin with this super dark period of his life (the events of Kraven's Last Hunt). Furthermore IIRC, it's later canonized that Vermin has pheromone powers that cause people around him to go crazy with rage and self-loathing/hatred, especially towards Vermin (due to the villain's own personal issues in regards to being sexually abused).

I think it was actually confirmed that Robbie already knew about Peter when Peter unmasked during Civil War. Then of course when that genie was put back in the bottle and Mephisto magically restored Spidey's secret ID it seems that Robbie's knowledge was also wiped. Certainly I don't think there have been any hints of his knowledge since then. A shame because it was always an elegant piece of Spidey-lore.

I'm a fan of this storyline personally, and DeMatteis take on the character in particular. Amazing #400 is still one of the character's best stories imo. May is still dead as far as I'm concerned - Kraven too for that matter!.

Don't know what you're thinking of, but it's not Civil War. Robbie was as surprised as Jonah.

That's interesting, is there a particular issue where you see Robbie's reaction? Do you get to see any thought bubbles from Robbie or any surprise/anger/confrontation against Peter?

Obviously there's many of us Spidey fans who think Robbie probably does know, or at least that there have been several different 70s & 80s comics implying that he may do, so it would be interesting to see if Robbie's reaction in Civil War fits in with that. If there's nothing specific beyond a panel showing him looking surprised, we could just explain it as Robbie being surprised that Peter would be stupid enough to reveal his identity in such a public manner.

Though I agree with Chris & ChrisW that Robbie knowing should never be confirmed one way or the other, even though scenes such as (during Wolfman's run) where Robbie interrupts Peter at the docks just as he is saying he is Spider-Man, or (during Peter's absence in Secret Wars) Robbie ushering Black Cat away from her argument with Jonah saying she'll say something she'll regret. I am just hoping that the Civil War writers didn't spoil that by confirming one of them.

In Spider-Man 533, by Straczynski and Garney, Robbie says to Jonah, "I didn't know, J.J. Nobody did." For what it's worth, there's no indication he's not completely genuine.

Fnord writes: "In fact, he's done plenty of monologuing of his own in the past. But it's worth remembering that we're at the point now where these conventions are being challenged, thanks largely to the works of Alan Moore and Frank Miller. And i like that, but at the same time it could have been done without this realization that oh, he's not like those other silly villains."

I think that's one of the things that made this story work so well. It's Kraven, f'r cryin' out loud. He's the last guy to throw off the 'traditional ways' when confronting a superhero. Yeah, Spidey is undergoing drug effects at the time, but it's at least 50-50 that the audience wasn't, and we had the same reaction. No death trap, no monologue, he's just going to shoot Spidey when he's helpless and that's that.

This sort of thing wasn't done back then. Alan Moore's original idea for "Watchmen" started with a superhero being murdered and then other heroes try to figure out who was responsible. I wouldn't be surprised if the success of "Watchmen" is what got DeMatteis approval for this story, which both Marvel and DC had turned down. The Dark Age was approaching.

As to Robbie, I'd just say 'let it remain vague.' Like MJ knowing the secret all along, but with Robbie it works.

I also wonder if "Dark Knight" was another influence, in that Batman used guns several times during the series. Batman doesn't like guns. Everybody knows this. Yet he's turning an M240 on a robber, the Batmobile has been outfitted with machine guns, etc. Having Kraven suddenly pull out a rifle is a major dramatic point.

Guys I was basing my statement that Robbie's confirmed his knowledge on a hazy mmemory and a quick look at Wikipeidia( the Robbie entry actually says that Jonah fired him because he knew all along).

I actually think that its a shame if we DIDNT get an acknowledgement of this during the Civil War storyline. Otherwise the plot is just totally forgotten, which I guess wouldn't be surprising given that it was a subtle dangler in scattered Spidey issues through the 70s-80s and Civil War happened 20 years later. Peter David was back writing Spidey at that point though, I'm surprised that he didn't reference it somehow.

I wonder what Slott thinks of it now? he loves old continuity like this but I imagine he is of the mind that the Mephisto mind wipe covers it as it does other characters like Daredevil that long knew that Pete was Spidey.

Hugh, I figured out what you're thinking of. In Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man 21, by David and Nauck, Robbie gets into a fight with Jonah and in the course of it says he knew Peter was Spider-Man "deep down". So David isn't contradicting Straczynski outright, he's just saying Robbie knew it subconsciously. And Jameson doesn't fire him because he knew; he fires him because Robbie is unquestionably, if justifiably, insubordinate.

Picked up the PAD Friendly Neighborhood Spideys (I was a big PAD fan as a youth so I guess I had to buy it eventually), can confirm Andrew is correct. Robbie is telling Jonah to go easy on Peter during a hard time, blaming him for years of turning the public against Peter, Robbie says he wished he'd done more to stop Jonah doing it.

When Jonah says Peter has tricked them for years, Robbie says there were so many coincidences between Peter & Spider-Man that "you must have known it deep down. Must have. I know I did."

I thought the whole Civil War unmasking thing was utterly out of character & wished it hadn't happened, and whether Robbie knows shouldn't really be confirmed either way. But since it did happen, I think the quoted conversation does a good job of walking the fine line of being unclear whether Robbie knew, or didn't consciously know... which should be fine with both sides of debate. Not ideal, but the best solution in the circumstances I think.

(Even though, clearly he does know.. just look at the scene above. MJ comes in crazy for no reason, Robbie looks at Spidey headline, Robbie doesn't see Peter for 2 weeks and then Kraven confesses he's been impersonating Spidey for 2 weeks... doesn't take a genius.)

From the moment I started reading Marvel comic books (in publication order), I always read articles aside to know what stories were considerd classics, or runs in general, etc. Kraven's Last Hunt of course is famously considered a classic. Usually I find that the "classics" aren't my favorite stories, at all. But in this case, I just read these six issues and they are actually pretty good. I'm not sure what other good stories are there for spidey until "the 90s" ruin everything (your Liefelds, your McFarlane's, your clone sagas, etc), but this one was top notch.