Issue(s): Deadly Foes of Spider-Man #1, Deadly Foes of Spider-Man #2, Deadly Foes of Spider-Man #3, Deadly Foes of Spider-Man #4
Cover Date: May-Aug 91
Title: "Punishment and crime" / "The price of justice" / "Shattered dreams" / "While the city screams!"
Credits:
Danny Fingeroth - Writer
Kerry Gammill & Al Milgrom / Al Milgrom - Penciler
Mike Machlan / Mike Machlan & Al Milgrom / Mike Machlan, Al Milgrom, & Harry Candelario - Inker
Terry Kavanagh - Editor

Review/plot:
Issue #1 gives a "special thanks to Mark Gruenwald, John Byrne, and Michael Higgins". Al Milgrom becomes the sole penciler with issue #3. He begins helping out on inks an issue earlier than that. Harry Candelario joins the inker brigade with issue #4. This story was apparently "years" in the making, per a note in the lettercol in Spectacular Spider-Man #176.

It's interesting to see Danny Fingeroth on this. Despite a run on Dazzler in the early 80s, Fingeroth has mainly worked as an editor. His writing assignments have mostly been fill-ins. But he's used some of those fill-ins to tell loosely continued stories about two characters: Spider-Woman and Dominic Fortune. And in the case of Spider-Woman, it was meant to be building up to a mini-series that never manifested. So you would think that if Fingeroth got approval to do a Spider-related mini-series, it would be the Spider-Woman series that he'd been working towards. But i'm glad that it worked out this way (not that i would have minded a Spider-Woman mini as well), because instead we have a focus on Spider-Man's "deadly foes", and i am a sucker for a villain-focused story.

The foes in question are mainly the Sinister Syndicate, who have only been seen as a group prior to this story in Amazing Spider-Man #280-281. But the Kingpin is also involved, as is the Shocker. And we're introduced to a new villain with a connection to an established one (albeit of questionable pedigree) as well. Spider-Man is included in this story, and in my opinion Danny Fingeroth makes the scenes where he is included a bit too much from his perspective, but the story doesn't focus on Spider-Man and it doesn't include his supporting cast. It's a story about the villains and their complicated relationships with each other.

Fans of the more recent Superior Foes of Spider-Man (2013-2015) will find a lot familiar here. This series isn't as sardonic or absurdist, but it does hit a lot of the same beats. The inclusion of the Shocker (who does not join the Syndicate) also helps with that, as does the fact that the Shocker is in a terrible state in this story. He's in prison, terrified that the Scourge is going to kill him (and no one pulls him aside and tells him that he's a Stan Lee/ John Romita creation and is therefore probably safe).

After a dream sequence showing the Shocker getting chased by the Punisher, Scourge, and a Venom-like Spider-Man...

...we start with the Kingpin arranging for the Beetle to be let out of jail. It's not actually stated that the Kingpin has arranged for his release (although we do see the Kingpin scheming prior to Beetle getting out), and we see a few regular prisoners complaining that they're stuck in jail for offenses that are relatively minor compared to the Beetle's super-villainy.

I mean, who hasn't been caught with a couple of uzis? Just kids being kids.

Beetle goes to the Tinkerer and gets a new suit. However, Beetle has multiple debts, and he has to go further in debt with the Tinkerer (who clearly respects the Beetle and thinks he's good for it). Beetle then calls together a meeting of the Sinister Syndicate.

Boomerang makes a bid to take over the group from the Beetle, but Rhino shuts him down.

It's interesting to see that the rest of the group really respects the Beetle. This series does a lot to build the character up as a (mid level) master planner. He devises the schemes for the group, and they work. Or when they don't work it's because of Boomerang going against orders or similar situations.

We're also introduced to Boomerang's girlfriend, Leila Davis. She's going to be the getaway driver for the group. She's important to the plot, but it's kind of a weird contrivance that this group needs a getaway van. Every single one of these guys has more mobility outside of a motor vehicle than in one. I guess the advantage is that it's unmarked, allowing them to avoid pursuit.

If that's the case, though, being an inconspicuous driver is better than being a fancy driver, and that becomes apparent where Leila nearly runs down Peter Parker while driving too fast.

So the Syndicate's robbery of the Federal Reserve Bank's gold would have gone off without a hitch, except that they drew the attention of Spider-Man. Even with that, though, things are going well. It is five against one, after all.

Like i said earlier, this is a moment where i think the story would have been better served if we didn't get to look in on Spider-Man's thoughts. Instead of seeing Spider-Man's exposition about his spider-sense, for example, it would have been cooler to have the villains wondering how he knew that Speed Demon was coming up behind him.

We really shouldn't even have seen the scene with Peter dodging the van. The battle should all have been about "How did he show up so quickly!" "How does he dodge all our shots!" "His wise-cracking is driving me crazy! Make him shut up!" Instead at this point it reverts to a standard Spider-Man fight. But i do like the interior monologue from the Beetle prior to this, with him considering his rep and making the 'fight or flight' decision. But Fingeroth could have gone further with that by committing to a perspective instead of giving us the omniscient view. It's a technique that Kurt Busiek will use to great success in a number of titles, but just due to the nature of this story, Fingeroth is so close to hitting upon it here, i can't help wish that he would have gone a little further with it.

In any event, Spider-Man is indeed outmatched.

And he's not killed only because the Rhino doesn't want a murder charge looming against him, since he's planning to go straight once he can earn enough money to get out of the suit.

But the Syndicate has their gold, and all would have went well if Boomerang didn't decide to double back to kill Spider-Man anyway. Instead, Spider-Man recovers and Boomerang is buried in rubble.

Spider-Man turns him over to the police.

Beetle has his lawyer, Steve Partridge, deal with Boomerang's legal troubles.

Obviously, unlike the Serpent Society, there's no Sidewinder to just teleport Boomerang out of jail. But i like that the Syndicate has a way to deal with members that get captured.

But now the group has its second setback. It turns out that the Beetle has agreed to turn over the proceeds of this robbery to the Kingpin. This was in part in return for the Beetle's early release from prison, but it will also allow them to operate in the Kingpin's territory in the future, in return for giving up 10% of the profits.

The Beetle didn't tell the Syndicate about this ahead of time, and they're mad, but they also understand that it's dangerous to cross the Kingpin. So they ultimately decide to let the Beetle live and continue to plan their capers, except now they are going to be taking votes on his every decision.

Beetle also takes Leila for a review of the prison where Boomerang is being held, to confirm that they can't just break Boomerang out. Spider-Man happens to be checking out the prison at the same time (and incidentally terrorizing the Shocker), and he recognizes the van. But Beetle has something for this situation: a sonic cannon from the Tinkerer.

When Beetle tries to finish Spider-Man off, Leila stops him, claiming that it's because of Rhino's concern. And then Code: Blue shows up and Beetle has to flee.

For what it's worth, Code: Blue just makes sure that Spider-Man is ok and they let him leave.

While Leila is driving the Beetle away we learn that there is something to her beyond being Boomerang's girlfriend.

Meanwhile, in prison, Boomerang thinks back to his days as a Major League pitcher.

There's actually a prisoner's dilemma situation going on. The ADA offers Boomerang a deal if he will snitch on his friends. Beetle, meanwhile, is considering sending in evidence to bury Boomerang to do away with his challenges to leadership of the Syndicate. So each person has good reason to turn on the other. But Boomerang's fond remembrance of his time on the baseball team makes him decide that he likes being a team player. And Beetle overhears the other Syndicate members (Hydroman and Rhino; Speed Demon has designs on Leila and wouldn't mind if Boomerang stayed in jail) implying that the way the Boomerang situation is handled will determine whether they decide to stick around. So he decides not to send in the evidence. So things are going well, and so far we are avoiding the usual double-crossing nonsense that happens every time a team of villains gets together.

But there are other complications. After another successful job, Rhino decides that he's got enough money to leave.

Beetle convinces him to stick around for one more job.

The bigger problem is the fact that Steve Partridge seems to be throwing Boomerang's case. And i mean blatantly. Super-hero comics are never good at depicting trials, but Partridge just literally calls witnesses to the stand to say bad things about Boomerang and then doesn't challenge them.

Therefore the Beetle has to enact Plan B, which is raiding the courthouse to rescue Boomerang.

Notice the specially colored Guardsmen. Maybe those are special suits to get around the fact that Tony Stark designed the main suits to only hold power while they are in the Vault in Avengers Spotlight #29. Actually, red and blue seem to be the color of choice for all the good guys in these issues. Spider-Man, of course, and Code: Blue, and these special Guardsman and even the regular police.

Boomerang is understandably paranoid about what's going on. And further complicating matters, Spider-Man shows up again.

Boomerang is re-captured, and the rest of the Syndicate is forced to flee.

It turns out that the Kingpin paid off Partridge. And Leila is still working her own scheme. And Rhino is still threatening to leave.

Spider-Man also planted a tracer on the Rhino, but Beetle finds it and, independent of the Syndicate, sets a trap for Spider-Man. He ties the ADA to a bomb and puts the tracer on the bomb, rigging it to explode when Spider-Man arrives. But Spider-Man recognizes a circuit on the bomb as being the same as one that was also on the sonic cannon that the Beetle used earlier, and he also recognizes it as the Tinkerer's signature circuit, and he therefore leaps to the conclusion that if he pulls out the circuit it will disarm the bomb.

I have to really ding the Tinkerer for all of that. First of all, he's a behind-the-scenes guy. He shouldn't be designing anything that points back to him. Second of all, he shouldn't be designing a bomb with a circuit sitting on the outside that makes it possible to disarm the whole thing.

In any event, the whole scene is just to provide a Spider-Man related cliffhanger between issues #2 & 3. It has almost no bearing on the story. It just exists to give Spider-Man something to do. You've already got three books, Spider-Man! Let the bad guys have the spotlight in this one!

The art definitely declines when Kerry Gammill leaves after issue #3. You start to see some of the classic awkward Al Milgrom poses. But the art is still better than a lot of Milgrom's work. The characters look more substantial than, say, his work on the Hulk or Secret Wars II (although in this particular scan i wonder why the Beetle had modified his costume to include storage containers for cantaloupes right on the front. They can get bruised that way!).

The extra "body" that the characters have may be the contribution of Mike Machlan, although it's worth noting that as the series goes on, Machlan gets more and more help with the inking, starting with help from Milgrom. One thing about Milgrom is that he's always juggled large casts of characters in big knock-down fights, and that's exactly what happens in the latter part of this series.

Beetle has lined up another job for the Syndicate. It's an assassination mission. The Rhino has decided that he's done, and he leaves the group before finding out who the target is (a decision that will turn out to have ironic consequences). Hydroman and Speed Demon stick around, and Speed Demon continues to try to put the moves on Leila.

Meanwhile, a plan is in motion to break Boomerang out of prison. The plan involves the Shocker, who is the butt of pranks by the guards over his Scourge phobia.

But the lawyer, Steve Partridge, is sent to arrange for him to help Boomerang (and himself) escape..

However, when they get outside, more police are waiting for them. Except these guys are working for the Kingpin, and have orders to shoot to kill. Shocker and Boomerang are saved by Leila.

Leila overheard Beetle conspiring with Partridge (or at least she claims to; we don't actually hear what Beetle and Partridge say), and she tells Shocker and Boomerang. She also reveals at this point what she's about. It turns out that she is the widow of the original Ringer.

She blames the Beetle for humiliating the Ringer and putting him in a situation where he felt like he needed to continue to be a super-villain to prove himself after it was clear that he wasn't really cut out for that life. And therefore he was still active during the Scourge era, and was killed by him. It's kind of a stretch to prioritize the Beetle on the hate list for this, but no one expects bereaved spouses to be rational. Shocker and Boomerang agree to go along with her revenge scheme. Boomerang starts training with Shocker, trying to build up his self-confidence.

Meanwhile, Rhino allows himself to be subjected to electroshock treatments by a Dr. Goulding that will, after a period of weeks, remove his costume.

The bad news is that Dr. Goulding turns out the be the target of the Sinister Syndicate's assassination job.

So, a definitive example of the Beetle killing someone. And he doesn't look hesitant about it.

The Rhino, of course, is not happy about this, and he can't be convinced that it's a coincidence.

The good news is that the remaining members of the Syndicate continue to give the Beetle their full confidence. Despite the betrayals and mishaps, i like the fact that a core group of the villains remain loyal to each other. And not because they are great friends or really great people deep down inside, but because it makes logical and profitable sense for them to do so.

And again, it really builds the Beetle up as a credible mid level boss villain. I would have liked to see this reconciled more with the fact that the Beetle was considering getting out of the game in Spectacular Spider-Man #164, but it is established here that he has debts to pay (it also says that he wants to set up a science lab for himself, although for villainous purposes).

Leila gets a tip that the Rhino is on the outs with the Beetle's group, and she sends Boomerang and Shocker to recruit him. But almost immediately after that, Shocker decides to get out. However, coincidence puts him on the street right next to Peter Parker, who recognizes him.

Shocker actually does well against Spider-Man...

..but when he's about to shoot the finishing blow (right outside a police station), the Scourge seemingly shoots at him.

So the Shocker just decides to get out of town.

Not long after that, Beetle's group launches a preemptive strike on Leila's.

Rhino makes a point of moving the fight out into the street.

Leila participates in the fight, using the Ringer's weapons.

It's a fun fight between two sets of super-villains.

We are definitely seeing more of the old style Al Milgrom poses as he juggles the big cast plus the police and bystanders.

During the fight, the Rhino seems to be up to something. Beetle hopes that he is switching sides, but that's not what is going on.

Spider-Man eventually arrives and winds up having to fight both sides.

Leila eventually gets the Beetle in her rings and starts squeezing.

Spidey defeats Boomerang and rescues the Beetle and captures Leila.

Speed Demon and Hydroman flee. The Rhino also gets away. And that leads to an interesting epilogue. We next see the Rhino at the Kingpin's building. The Kinpin gives a (heavily expository) explanation that he's been manipulating a lot of the events in this story. Rhino reached out to him earlier, looking for a cure for his costume situation. So Kingpin made sure that the Rhino joined up with Leila, and that Beetle found out where Leila's hideout was. And Rhino made sure that the battle happened very publicly near a particular police station. Kingpin also made sure that Shocker didn't linger near that police station with the Scourge ruse. The goal was to send someone into that police station to make copies of computer disks containing information on all the undercover police operations in the US.

He assigns some doctors to work with the Rhino, but secretly tells them to fail, so that Kingpin can keep the Rhino around for missions. However, Rhino overhears the doctors talking about that, and kidnaps the children of one of the doctors, forcing him to continue the work that Dr. Goulding was doing. And that works; Rhino is freed from his costume.

That underwear must be toxic.

The doctor worries that the Kingpin will go after him now, but the Rhino has a solution.

And it's not as menacing as it seems. He arranges for Spider-Man to find the doctor and his family and bring them into the Witness Protection Program. There's a little bit of trouble finding the family due to the fact that the instructions said that they were in a red truck.

The Rhino didn't mention that it was a blue red truck.

Definitely feels like Marvel got a bargain on blue ink for this series, and were determined to use it regardless of the story needs.

Even that isn't the end. "A month later", the Rhino is enjoying his life free from his costume, but he's getting a little bored. Then he gets a package containing what turns out to be only a harmless smokebomb, and then a call from the Kingpin containing a variety of threats but ultimately saying that the score is settled between them. However, in the end the Rhino decides that he wants to get back into the super-villain business, so he calls up Justin Hammer.

I'd like to think that there's something special about the Rhino beyond his costume. Justin Hammer shouldn't be able to whip up a Rhino costume for just anyone. So i'd like to think that the Rhino has super-strength and invulnerability even with the costume removed, and the Rhino suit just compliments it. But the Rhino did recoil in terror when the Kingpin's (smoke) bomb was about to go off. So i guess he's not invulnerable out of costume. Maybe the suit reacts with his unique body chemistry in some way, or something.

Anyway, it's interesting to see the focus shift to the Rhino for the final third of the fourth issue, since prior to that the Beetle and Boomerang (and, separately, the Shocker) were getting most of the attention. Those characters are basically shunted aside. I suspect that this was done to line things up for the Rhino's appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #344. I don't know if any of Fingeroth's originally intended story was sacrificed for that. But even though i might have liked a little more closure for Boomerang and Beetle, this is a really fun story. Marvel's villains have a lot of potential. They are long established characters so no one has to convince us to be interested in them. But many of them are nearly blank slates, so a lot can be done with them. This story does a lot to give the characters unique personalities and it generally makes all the villains look competent, even if the uber-villain Kingpin gets the most out of it by manipulating over the others.

Leila Davis will later become Hardshell and then a Beetle. Pembroke, the Kingpin's assistant in these issues, will have a couple more appearances as well (and actually, by publication date, his first appearance is in Daredevil #291).

Quality Rating: B+

Historical Significance Rating: 3 - first Leila Davis

Chronological Placement Considerations: A note in issue #1 tells us that this takes place before the events of Amazing Spider-Man #344, specifically in how it relates to the Rhino (who is working for Justin Hammer in that story). The MCP place it between Amazing Spider-Man #339-340. Spider-Man considers going to the Avengers at one point for help with the Syndicate, and it's later said that the Avengers and the Fantastic Four are both out of town. Many weeks pass during the course of this story.

References:

• When the Rhino says that all he wants is enough money to pay for the operation to remove his costume and go straight, a footnote tells us that this is before Amazing Spider-Man #344.
  
• During his trial, Boomerang's actions while auditioning to be the Kingpin's assassin, from Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #67, are brought up.
  
• The Beetle forced the Ringer to work for him in Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #58.
  
• Scourge killed the Ringer in Captain America #319.
  
• A scrap book that the Shocker looks at also mentions the death of the Enforcer (Iron Man #194) and Basilisk (Fantastic Four #289), both by Scourge.

Crossover: N/A

Continuity Insert? N

My Reprint: N/A

Shocker was created by Lee and Romita Senior, not Junior.

But even then, if Miracle Man (Lee/Kriby) and Melter (Lee/Ditko) were Scourge-Bait, we should be glad Shocker's still around (and an upcoming issue of Captain America reveals Shocker was a Scourge target, but the hit failed).

Oh thanks. I think my fingers just automatically type "Jr." after Romita nowadays.

I agree on Melter, but with Miracle Man it was a mercy for everyone. He probably added his name to Scourge's list himself, out of embarrassment.

Rhino has super powers, according to the Handbook and to some of his appearances (like the suit shouldn't help him resist tear gas, for instance, which he does effortlessly). However, in various appearances (this one, and his first appearance when Spidey uses acid to destroy his suit), he seems quite weaker without the suit.

ahh, ive been waiting for you to review this one, fnord. like you, im a sucker for villain focused stories. (Memories. I was actually reading the 1st issue with David Letterman on the telly, so Spidey's joke was extra funny for me.)

artwork aside, i enjoyed this. its great to see the interactions betwixt them. And this goes aways toward redeeming Beetle after that terrible spectacular SM story you mention. I like how the muscle guys respect the Beetle as a planner. It reminds me of how the muscle guys in secret wars elected Dr Doom their leader even when Doom wasn't present.

Although it falls into the typical villains betraying each other, each villain gets some scenes and motivation. I agree that the story would benefit from less Spider-man. The Rhino's letter to Spidey was so cute. And this is the second time SM has fought Boomerang in a courtroom. (I always thought Boomerang should have been a cricket bowler rather than a baseball player. I doubt there are any Aussie pitchers in MLB but every Aussie I've met has been a brilliant cricketer).

issue 3 might be my favourite Shocker story. hes my favourite spidey villain. When Spidey goads him into the fight its such a great scene of redemption. "Look out world, the Shocker is back!" I found myself rooting for the villain. Yay, Shocker!

Kveto, I don't think this really redeemed the Beetle- he makes too many screwups. He gets in debt to the Kingpin without telling the others, he accidentally kills the scientist helping the Rhino and he's outwitted by the RINGER'S WIDOW and has to be saved by Spider-Man from her. Still, it makes him look a lot more competent than that Spectacular Spider-Man issue.
Dr. Goulding's murder will come back to haunt the Beetle in Thunderbolts.
When I first read Amazing Spider-Man 344 and saw Justin Hammer talking about getting the Rhino a new suit, I was like "How is that possible? Isn't his suit permanently attached to his body?" I wondered if maybe they put the new suit over the old suit somehow. The delay in this story coming out made ASM 344 confusing.

The trial witness scan is shown twice.

This is one of the storylines I read in the school library when I was a kid (picked it up because of the 'Lethal Foes' game).

Fixed the scan, thanks Enchlore.

Wait, is Leila the Bettle from the Redeemers? Oh, things do not end well for her...

This was an enjoyable limited series. I would have liked an ongoing series that told stories from the perspective of the villains. There'd be the challenge of not glamorizing evil, but a skilled writer could easily do it. Villains need to have some kind of success, or they just become laughing stocks after defeat after defeat.

Gammill is a wonderful penciler, and it is sad he did not get better ongoing work from Marvel after his tenure in PM&IF was over. Milgrom is awful, as always.

I didn't like the break up of the Syndicate at the end. I think Marvel could have used a good ongoing criminal organization (especially with the demise of the Serpent Society) especially at the street level. The Syndicate actually has a lot of power - they should easily be able to defeat Spider-Man only. Not close to Avengers or other established superhero teams, but they'd make a good hook that the Syndicate is dangerous enough that someone like Spidey needs to recruit other heroes to handle the threat.

This began life as a serial for Marvel Comics Presents when Michael Higgins was still the editor for the title which is why he was thanked. It's also why Terry Kavanagh is the editor and not Jim Salicrup. It was delayed for numerous reasons before being reworked into a limited series.

But it must have been reworked fairly recently- Code Blue are very new characters at this point.

This book was a real gem, contrasting with what was becoming an increasingly bad Spider-verse at this point.

Roughly two to two and an half years had passed between the story being commissioned and actually appearing. Some updating to keep it current was likely part of the reworking. If I recall correctly all Code Blue scenes were drawn by Milgrom. Gammill was at DC at this point and (probably) unavailable.

Between Ringer and Rhino, its pretty ironic that Beetle has been subject to multiple accusations that he is stopping people from leaving the supervillain business, considering that he eventually becomes one of the founding Thunderbolts.

In an exciting world of Jim Lee, Ron Lim, JRJR etc I found this series at the time to be dated and forgettable. Never liked Milgrom's art. The story was by the numbers for me.

This is a fantastic story. I agree with Kveto, the Shocker is awesome, and like Kveto, I saw myself rooting for him for a while because I was really upset about all that bullying they gave him in prison. In his opening dream sequence for the first issue I thought that the monstrous "Spider-Man" attacking him was that "Doppelgänger" beast I had seen in trading cards.

I was amazed by the Kingpin's manipulative genius in this mini-series. It was nice to see an in-story explanation for his ability to evade criminal prosecution in spite of all his very notorious criminal activities.

It's interesting that Rhino objects to the gang killing Spidey because he doesn't want a murder rap, but the only reason Spider-Man jumps in is to protect the guards from Hydro-Man killing them (I guess you could argue Rhino perhaps wasn't looking there).

I don't see any reason for us to believe the Kingpin sent a "fake"scourge. Fisk will lie if it suits his purpose.

If it was the Red Skull's scourge it would be better cause then we wouldn't have to account for another offscreen attempt by another scorgue on the Shocker that failed just like this one.

Maybe Fisk and the Skull made a deal during Acts of Vengeance or Streets of Poison. "Stay out of my city, and I'll feed a high-profile loser to your Scourge in order to bolster his rep."

kveto: I see a HUGE reason for us to believe Kingpin sent a fake Scourge. Shocker was disrupting Kingpin's plans, and since Fisk knew about Schultz' fear of Scourge, he figured that'd be the best way to get rid of him, which it was.

If it was a Red Skull Scourge making the hit at that exact time, it would have been an extreme coincidence that it just so happened to have helped the Kingpin's plan at that precise moment. If that Scourge didn't show up, Kingpin's plans would have been in jeopardy. I prefer to think Fisk reacted accordingly to the Shocker rather than a Red Skull Scourge gave the Kingpin a lucky break.

I could care less how many times a Scourge has tried to kill Shocker and failed. If you're talking about Scourge from Captain America #394, my own personal head cannon was that Scourge hit a Bar-With-No-Name Type establishment where Black Abbott, Lionfang, the Wrench, Shocker, Gamecock and Steel Wind were hanging out, and Scourge only got half of them before the others retreated to safety.

Also, Fisk will lie to suit his purpose, but why would he lie to Pembroke?

Omar: that idea holds merit. Scourge used as more of a hitman loaned out here. It could have been part of their settlement in streets of poison.

However, Shocker is way too cool to get killed by Scourge.

How does Kingpin know Red Skull is behind (a rogue part of)the Scourge program?

Streets of Poison pretty much established Kingpin and Red Skull hate each other's guts and want nothing to do with each other ever again. Fisk says he refuses to deal with a Nazi. I don't see them staying in touch and exchanging small favors at all.

I know as Marvel Comics Universe fans, we want to connect as many events as possible. But I see no reason to not accept the writing in DFOSM at face value and connect it to a throwaway comment in CA 394.

But kveto, you are absolutely right about Shocker. He's a cool villain, and Spidey's rogues gallery would be much poorer without him.

maybe the Skull heard about the attempt on the Shocker and assumed it was his agent who failed when it was really the Kingpin's man. The Skull didnt really give scourge a chance to explain that it wasn't really him.

Just trying to find a way to do away with the redundancy of having 2 failed Scourge hits on the Shocker.

milkrolik: I couldN'T care less that you could care less how many failed hits there are. In the end, its just a continuity exercise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw

Well, wasn't Shocker also listed as one of the original Scourge's intended targets in Captain America too?

Which might also explain why Shocker has a fear of Scourge.

Although Red Skull's Scourge's "failed" hit might be akin to the attempt on Kraven. Scourge showed up, didn't reveal himself and left.

kveto and AF: I'm OK with those theories; my only concern is that everything that happened in Deadly Foes happened the way the book said it happened, including the fact that "Scourge" was sent by Kingpin to ensure his plan went correctly, and wasn't a lucky break by a Red Skull Scourge being in the right place at the right time.

And BTW, I really did mean "I COULD care less." If I couldn't, I wouldn't have bothered with an argument.