Issue(s): Fantastic Four #229, Fantastic Four #230, Fantastic Four #231
Cover Date: Apr-Jun 81
Title: "The thing from the black hole" / "Firefrost and the Ebon Seeker" / "In all the gathered gloom!"
Credits:
Doug Moench / Doug Moench & Roger Stern - Writer
Bill Sienkiewicz / Bill Sienkiewicz & Al Milgrom - Layouts
Joe Sinnott / Joe Sinnott, Bill Sienkiewicz, & Frank Giacoia - Finishes
Bob Budiansky - Assistant Editor
Jim Salicrup - Editor

Review/plot:
Some strange phenomenon begins to affect Manhattan.

In a sign of things to come, a mob of people immediately start blaming the Fantastic Four for this.

That's kind of a mess. Sure, the public turning on their heroes on a dime has been a fine tradition going back to the beginning, but it really makes no sense here. There's no reason for anyone to assume the FF is at fault. If Moench wanted to develop this idea (and it's a key part of this arc) it would have been good to develop it more naturally in earlier issues of his run. I will grant that, as acknowledged in #229, this all technically is the FF's fault, since Reed had built a "Signa-Pulser" to help NASA find a lost satellite, and that's what attracts the Ebon Seeker to the planet. But the crowd didn't know that. It would have been nice to have had one of Reed's earlier experiments cause some minor trouble in an earlier issue in a way that got out publicly, or even if issue #229 included some people reacting to a newspaper article saying that the "Ego-Spawn" from last issue was due to an experiment involving the FF. We just needed something before the people of New York immediately transformed into a club and brickbat wielding mob.

Eventually a giant creature called the Ebon Seeker arrives.

He begins to shrink as he reaches Earth, thanks to all of those black tendrils siphoning off of him. But the tendrils themselves are a form of attack...

...and eventually they launch the Baxter Building (not again!) and the surrounding city block into the air.

The Ebon Seeker proves difficult to fight. Silent at first, he eventually speaks telepathically. He says that he's attacking the Earth because it's trying to kill him, "just as so many other planets have killed me". For eons he has "sought other life" but whenever he finds it, he is destroyed. But that's ok because once the planet is destroyed he will be reborn to go seek life elsewhere. It's said he was created in a black hole.

To save the FF, the Ebon Seeker's ghost girlfriend shows up.

She describes a much more involved version of the Ebon Seeker's origin, which is a bit tedious...

...but Moench has Mr. Fantastic tell the ghost lady (Firefrost) that he is awed. The story gets very metaphysical, with Firefrost saying things of Ebon Seeker like, "Ironically, the reality within the black hole, if only he could come to accept it - is the ultimate manifestation of everything he desires -- congress with other life, the mystery of the unknown, the wonders of the cosmos previously unseen and unsuspected...". The story also name-checks Carl Sagan's Murmurs of Earth. The whole thing just reads like Moench trying way too hard to blow our minds.

Meanwhile, the Avengers show up and offer to help, but they are soundly rejected.

Less mind blowing and better character interaction, please.

Issue #230 ends with the Ebon Seeker flying off with his girlfriend. But the Fantastic Four and their city block wound up trapped in the Negative Zone as a result of their efforts of helping those two lovebirds resolve their differences.

On issue #231, the art credits just list Sienkiewicz, Sinnott, and Moore as "artists". The GCD says that the first 21 pages were inked by Sinnott and pages 22-28 were inked by Sienkiewicz, who also did layouts for the entire book except for page 30, which was by an uncredited Al Milgrom on breakdowns and Frank Giacoia on finishes/inks. "Moore" apparently being a typo (or joke?) for "More". There's definitely a distinct difference pre and post pages 21 and 22, and the final page is clearly by another art team altogether.

#231 also credits the writing to "Moench & Gurland". At the time of writing this original post, the internet didn't seem to know who Gurland was. What was tantalizing about that is this issue devoted a lot more time to consolidating the rules of the Negative Zone than i would expect of Moench. Per Holt's comment below, it turns out that Gurland was the continuity-minded Roger Stern, which explains a lot. (This may be a bit much, but a quick google of "Gurland" led me to Hayyim Jonah Gurland
which made me think of a quote in Sean Howe's book about "Talmudic continuity scholars in Marvel editorial").

The ordinary people trapped in the Negative Zone with the FF continue to blame the FF for what's been happening, and they are particularly riled up by a construction project manager who is annoyed that the trip to another dimension will delay the demolition of a building that he's responsible for. So he stirs up the crowd and they attempt an assault on the Negative Zone, held back by some hasty fortifications set up by the Thing and the Torch, and a lone policeman who supports the FF. Meanwhile, the FF remain at the top of the Baxter Building (in what i assume is meant to be a "secluded in their ivory tower" commentary), waiting for Reed to figure out how to get everybody home. Johnny does fly down to the people every so often to yell at them and throw fireballs.

I think Sue, more or less by default, would have been the better choice to be a diplomat.

It's while Reed is trying to figure out a way home that we get a definitive explanation of the Negative Zone. The explanation addresses inconsistencies in the way the Negative Zone was depicted over the years. In the Stan Lee days, there was a blurring between the Negative Zone and the concept of sub-space. Here it's clarified that sub-space is a "non-realm" that links the positive universe to the Negative Zone. Additionally, in earlier appearances, the Negative Zone seemed to consist entirely of a Debris Belt where gravity pulled all surrounding mass towards a center that would cause an explosion as matter met anti-matter. This is now explained as a specific part of the Negative Zone that Reed has subsequently stopped using as an entrance point.

Additionally, the matter around the Debris Belt is no longer said to be entirely composed of positive matter.

A map helps illustrate all of this.

The Distortion Area, as i understand it, is where it's possible to slip into sub-space and then back to the positive universe. I can't say i "get" all of this 100% but what's interesting to me is how this fits into a larger effort during the Shooter era where all the mysteries and inconsistencies of the Marvel Universe were getting more definitive rules. And of course the revelation that Roger Stern was more responsible for this than Moench makes a lot of sense.

While in the Negative Zone, the FF attract the attention of a Steranko-looking entity called Stygor.

Part of the reason i say i'm still not sure i totally grok the Negative Zone explanation is because here is Stygor complaining that the denizens of the Negative Zone "have attempted to dispose of their vermin... and now, a small city thinks to intrude on me!". That's unclear. Almost like a phrase is missing. Dispose of their vermin... in my domain, perhaps? But it sounds like Stygor is talking like he's separate from the Negative Zone.

By the way, i cut that panel above so that you can read a bit of the construction manager's speech that riles up the crowd against the FF. The whole speech strikes me as unrealistic and unconvincing.

The FF fight Stygor for a bit...

...but they wind up getting home when they decide to throw the building that was scheduled for demolishing outside of their bubble and into the Negative Zone, where they expect an explosion to propel them through the Distortion Zone.

What they don't realize is that the construction manager was hiding in the building at the time, and when he's thrown out, he merges with Stygor, and that's what really causes the explosion that sends everybody home.

The cop that was helping to protect the FF suspects that the construction manager was in the building, but he keeps that to himself.

While the FF are stuck in the Negative Zone, we see the first hints that Johnny's latest girlfriend, Lorrie Melton, really isn't all that into him.

And she does break-up with him at the end (this is from the last page by a different art team).

Something went wildly wrong with this creative team on the FF. Moench & Sienkiewicz were top creators, but you just look through the stories from their run - Captain Barracuda, Snowmobile Vikings, Shogun Warriors, Brain Moles, and this Ebon Seeker and Firefrost - and it's just like Moench was trying to be as eccentric as possible. But all the stories are played very straight and if anything take themselves way too seriously, with Moench quoting all kinds of New Age and speculative science books.

With the Ebon Seeker, with his tendrils and black light, Sienkiewicz was able to go a little more crazy. But in other respects i haven't loved his art on this run. Sienkiewicz's early work is often compared to Neal Adams, but i've never found that to be a great comparison. Neal Adams had a photorealistic style, and that's where the comparison comes from, but Adams was also a master of layout and he was able to convey a nice sense of action. Sienkiewicz's art on this series has definitely had the photorealistic quality. Sometimes a bit too much; in these panels (especially Alica) it seems like there was too much reliance on photo references.

The layouts are much more straightforward and the action is stiff. It's enough to drain any excitement out of these plots. This causes a feedback loop with Moench's attempts at cerebral plotting. Sienkiewicz will obviously change dramatically over time, but he was even doing better with Moon Knight at the same time as these FF issues.

Issue #229 opens with a splash page showing some of Alicia's statues, including one of Jim Shooter dressed up as a king.

There's some dialogue bobbles coming off of the credits at the bottom. In case it's not legible, it says:

Jim Salicrup: Hey Jim, how do you like our little tribute to ya?
Jim Shooter: I'll get you for this!

That seems to be all in good fun, but i know that Moench and Shooter didn't get along and i wonder how much of that is coming from him and is less friendly than it seems. I also wonder if the construction project manager, with his talk of rigid schedules and no room for excuses, was based on Shooter.

The same scene has Alicia unveiling her new Moon Knight statue. Moench & Sienkiewicz were already the creators on Moon Knight's book, and they'll remain there for quite a while longer with better results and a very positive critical reception.

Quality Rating: C-

Historical Significance Rating: 1

Chronological Placement Considerations: The MCP places the Avengers here after Avengers #208. Johnny Storm and Lorrie Melton break up this issue, so Lorrie's appearance in Marvel Two-In-One #74 has to take place prior to this.

References:

• The Fantastic Four first encountered the Debris Belt in Fantastic Four annual #6. It wasn't seen in more recent trips because Mr. Fantastic altered the location of the portal to the Negative Zone to avoid that area.

Crossover: N/A

Continuity Insert? N

My Reprint: N/A

In the final issue, Moench seems to react to complaints that Sue wasn't powerful enough by having her use her forcefield to break the building free. I wonder if that was "Gurland"'s influence.

Added that scene.

You have Steve Moore in the credits. Since there was a Steve Moore who worked on Dr. Who and a 1969 Nick Fury, and a Jerome Moore primarily known for 1980s Green Arrow backups, who's the right Moore?

Hmmmm. The UHBMCC credits Steve Moore. The GCD says Jerome. I'm not familiar with either and can't say for myself. I've switched the credit to Jerome since the GCD seems to have more detailed information here.

Steve Moore rarely worked for American comics. He mainly worked for British comic companies, and then some Alan Moore related projects in the US.
He also writes for Fortean Times (outside the realm of comics).
So, it probably wasn't that Steve Moore.

On my first reading of #231 today, it absolutely appeared to me that Lew Shiner was in part an unflattering stand-in for Jim Shooter. First, consider the large stable of artists on this issue, usually an indication of deadline problems. Next, consider that Jim Shooter's Wikipedia article credits him with "ending the widespread practice of missed deadlines" (I realize Wikipedia isn't a primary source, but this is all a little before my time). Now re-read that particular "unrealistic and unconvincing" speech about deadlines, management, and accepting orders. Even their names are similar. You mention the statue of King Shooter in #229 and that he and Moench didn't get along. I have no idea what things they disagreed on, but it seems like Moench was unhappy about a rush on this issue and who knows what else. I don't know how deeply the Shiner/Shooter parallel was intended to run, but let's hope it would be a total stretch to look for any resemblance between the two in the function of would-be usurper and destroyer of the home of the Fantastic Four.

What's really strange is that Lewis Shiner is a famous science fiction writer. He was one of the original Cyberpunk authors, and he even wrote two comic series (for DC). In '81, I think his career was just starting. Moench may be name-dropping instead. He could always have been friends with him, or maybe he read Shiner's first book and was a fan. Why that character? It's always possible it was a coincidence, but Lew Shiner is a bit off an outre name.

My take on Moench's FF was that it was all an homage to B-grade sci-fi plots. Read in that context, it's much more palatable, although far from a good run.
I've never been sold on Moench's writing though. It seems he's either doing a great job or it's nearly unreadable. It doesn't seem like he has an in-between.

According to the Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe website, Stygorr and the Ebon Seeker were created because Moench was not allowed to use classic FF villains. So instead of Galactus we get the Seeker, and instead of Anihillus we get Stygorr.

17 years before 1981 amounts to 1965, when Shooter sold his first Legion of Super-Heroes script to Mort Weisinger.

http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/03/how-i-spent-my-summer-vacation-1965.html

So yes, it sure looks like an attempt at smearing Shooter.

In the letters page of #235, someone comments on the Jim Shooter statue ("I always wanted to know what Jim Shooter looked like") and gets the reply: "Jim doesn't have a crown like the one he's shown wearing -- his is much more tasteful."

According to the Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe website, Stygorr and the Ebon Seeker were created because Moench was not allowed to use classic FF villains. So instead of Galactus we get the Seeker, and instead of Anihillus we get Stygorr.

This seems weird af. Anybody has insight as to why?

Moench said that Salicrup kept telling him not to use the classic villains as they'd been overused, as more time was needed before they could be used again. Moench said he was keen to use the classic villains but Salicrup kept telling him to wait, and he ended up leaving before he got the chance to.

I wasn't aware that he'd created these villains as proxies for classic villains, but it makes sense I guess.

@ fnord12 -

"And i'd love to know who "Gurland" was as i think it's much more likely that s/he was responsible for this than Moench.

Indexer Notes

Per information from Jim Salicrup and Roger Stern, it was Stern who did some rewriting as "Gurland" and Al Milgrom drew the last page (the credit line "moore" was a typo which was supposed to read "and more").

https://www.comics.org/issue/35403/

"The Fantastic Four first encountered the Debris Belt in Fantastic Four annual #6. It wasn't seen in more recent trips because Mr. Fantastic altered the location of the portal to the Negative Zone to avoid that area."

The FF first encountered this area in FF #51, but I don't think it was called the "Debris Belt" yet, nor was the term "Negative Zone" used at that time, rather, it was only called "sub-space". I remember reading #51 over & over as a child, and kept noticing inconsistencies with later revisits.

In my head I always thought of the Debris Belt as the "Annihilation Zone." I don't remember why I came up with that term. In Reed's 1st (published) journey into the zone (FF #51), he went alone. The "Thing" who rescued him wasn't Ben Grimm, he was the impersonator shown on the cover. The FF visited the zone again in FF #61-63. Then they revisited it again in FF Annual #6. Each time, the inconsistencies kept piling up. Ben and Johnny remembered the zone, even though they hadn't been there in #51. I imagined that there might have been an "off-camera" visit between #51 and #61. My main conflict, which I've yet to resolve, was that it seemed clear in #51 that the Earth at the center was ours, not an anti-Earth as in later stories.

Thanks for the reference to FF #230. I haven't had time to really look into all this yet, but hope to get back to it later in the week(end). I suspect that the GCD excerpt I cited above must have been added after you last checked it.

Thanks, Holt. Yeah, that GCD info is new, and very helpful. I've updated the credits and entry a bit.

(Also, the comments area accepts straight html as shown in the example above the comments box, not the [markup] format used in the forum. In this case, <blockquote> instead of [quote]. I fixed it this time; just an FYI for the future.)

Please feel free to fixup any of my markup errors. I'm happy as a fat tick just to get a chance to devour this thread. I'll be going over it again with a finer tooth comb just as soon as I can make the time. This whole zone dilemma has been writhing around in my head forever. You and the other comment writers here have already given me more favors than I could ever return. And Roger Stern too I guess, since I didn't even know this fix-it-up story existed until yesterday. I'll be pulling out my FF Essentials reprints and tracking down any other issues I find referenced here, especially these three. More than cool enough just to know I'm not the only one who obsesses over these things. 8D

"But in other respects i haven't loved [Bill Sienkiewicz's] art on this run."

In the credits for #229, Sienkiewicz is credited only for "layouts" and Joe Sinnott is credited for "finishes." The other issues credit the pair together as "artists." It all looks the same so it's probably all Sinnott on finishes. At this stage of his art career, I like Sinnott better when he has full pencils to follow, but this experience was probably valuable for him. I noticed that particular picture of Alicia, too, and it's pretty horrible. He often gave other characters the crazy eyes look, and not just Alicia.

I'm now more convinced than ever that "anti-Earth" is the same Earth as the positive Earth, only as seen from the Negative Zone. Negative matter is (usually) understandable as being the same or similar to anti-matter. Reed's explanations are always inconsistent, which means that many of them are wrong (if not all), but in FF #51, the original source, it's explained as being "our" Earth. The "anti-Earth" images in Annual #6 are all drawn from Reed's speculative imagination only. Richards was highly distracted, as usual.

Comparing the Seeker's outfit (probably designed by Sienkiewicz(?)), with Nathaniel Richards outfit from Hickman's run, maybe there's a little vague similarity: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-1356899/