Issue(s): Namor #15, Namor #16, Namor #17, Namor #18, Namor #19, Namor #20
Cover Date: June-Nov 91
Title: "Into the Savage Land" / "Fist of Iron" / "Fire and stone" / "Double cross" / "9 wives" / "My mother... myself"
Credits:
John Byrne - Writer
John Byrne - Penciler
John Byrne - Inker
Kelly Corvese / Mark Powers - Assistant Editor
Terry Kavanagh - Editor

Review/plot:
As with many of John Byrne's Namor issues, all titles are taken from the cover.

I've been somewhat ambivalent about Byrne's Namor run, generally recognizing it as a kind of last hurrah of his 80s work (and i mean that in a very good way) but also thinking that the plots haven't fully lived up to their potential. The stories in this entry and the entry following this (issues #21-25) work better for me and it's notable that these stories are more traditional super-hero plots than the corporate raider and environmental themes of earlier issues. I think the corporate angle had a lot of potential but it never seemed to go anywhere, so as much as i'd rather see more ambitious plots using that status quo, i will very happily take Namor fighting the Super-Skrull in the Savage Land. Byrne also lays off the duo-tone for some of these issues, giving us more of a classic Byrne look on art. Still, there are two noticeable flaws with even these issues. The first is that trend towards decompression that we saw in extreme form on Byrne's Iron Man run. With the amount of plot in these issues, it shouldn't have taken six issues to deliver them. There's nothing wrong with decompression if it gives us more time to focus on character development or something like that, but i can't even tell you what is done with the extra space in these issues (except that a lot of time is devoted to flashbacks and lengthy recaps of the previous issue). The second thing is that a lot of the plots feel truncated or underdeveloped. The resolution to the long running Marrs Corporation situation happens mostly off panel, and to the degree that it is featured it includes a Punisher appearance that feels unnecessary and ends weirdly. The Super-Skrull's plot is willfully one dimensional. And a revelation about Namorita largely ends with us asking, "Ok, but what's the story?"; it's basically two issues to deliver a retcon without any actual plot behind it. The issues are still enjoyable, and the slow burn of the larger plot keeps us moving to the next issue without dwelling too long on what's being left behind, but when you look back on what you've read, it all feels like it fell a little bit short.

Issue #15 is delivered as a series of flashbacks while Namor flies through the mist on the outskirts of the Savage Land on the Griffin. The first flashback shows Namorita and Spitfire arguing with Namor about his change of heart towards Phoebe Marrs after last issue. He is then approached by an Atlantean scientist and told that Lady Dorma has been discovered alive (as we saw starting in Namor #13). The next flashback shows Namor going to Captain America to tell him that he's going to Atlantis, and we see how effective the idea of making Cap Namor's parole officer is in practice.

Cap decides that he's not going to fight Namor to make him stay. His one request is that he take the Griffin with him, because he "had to bend all kinds of laws" to gain authority for Namor to become the creature's "guardian".

I am hoping that among the hoops Cap had to jump through was taking the Griffin to someone like Reed Richards to confirm that there really was no trace of Johnny Horton, the human side of the Griffin. Because the Griffin is less a ward of Namor and more of a pet or steed, and i have a hard time believing that Cap would be ok with that unless every possibility of restoring Horton's mind was exhausted.

The next flashback shows Namor turning over his company to Desmond Marrs while he's away.

Namor's failure to read the character of Desmond seems like a major mistake on his part, something that you'd think would develop into a real plotline of its own. But as i mentioned, Desmond's scheme basically collapses on its own with no input from Namor. So all this set-up is kind of weird.

There's no effort spared in showing what a horrible person Desmond is, though.

Also note that he says that Phoebe has been spinning fairy tales for Namor, with a reference to last issue. As i noted in that issue's entry, when i read these issues in realtime i took that to mean that Phoebe was lying to Namor about her ridiculous Gothic romance marriage situation. But that doesn't seem to be the case, or at least Desmond is killed off before we learn any differently.

The next flashback has Namor in an Atlantean ship heading to Atlantis (currently relocated to the Antarctic Ocean). Namorita and Carrie Alexander have gone with him. It's noted that the ocean's temperature is rising, and global warming does not account for all of it. Namor is shown the mute and nearly mindless Lady Dorma, but the rising temperature and attendant sickness in the Atlantean people is the more pressing problem. Attuma, who is supposed to be the ruler of Atlantis these days, is not shown or mentioned. I guess he is still held prisoner by the US, per Web of Spider-Man annual #5. So Vashti asks Namor to investigate the Savage Land, which is where the heat and poison has been traced to.

So that ends the flashbacks. In the present, Namor makes it to the Savage Land...

...and finds that a company (Rand-Meachum, as we've already learned through earlier subplot scenes) has been digging up the Nuwali machinery that keeps the Savage Land's climate tropical. It's interesting that the Nuwali equipment is still there and functional. We did learn in Ka-Zar #34 and Fantastic Four #313-317 that the Nuwali were the aliens that built the Savage Land machinery, but the Savage Land was destroyed in Avengers #256-257. When the Savage Land was restored by the High Evolutionary in Uncanny X-Men annual #12, i assumed that he did it via his own evolutionary-acceleration technology, combined with the powers (and lifeforce) of Garokk. I figured the original Nuwali equipment was all destroyed by Terminus. But since it still seems to be here and operating, i guess the Evolutionary's efforts and Garokk's sacrifice merely restored the Nuwali technology. Or maybe the Nuwali tech is no longer sustaining the Savage Land, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been unearthed and maybe repaired for Rand-Meachum's purposes.

Speaking of those purposes, Namor is discovered by Danny Rand, aka the Iron Fist, and knocked out.

Iron Fist is supposed to be dead, and while his resurrection is coming up in the next arc, we aren't there yet. This Iron Fist's real identity might have already been guessed due to the hypnotic powers he displayed in earlier subplots, or based on the cover of issue #16 , where his iron fist power looks more like flaming rock (more so than in the scan above).

Issue #16 also has a series of flashbacks, but unlike in issue #15, they are presented as a series of prologues instead of interspersed throughout the issue. The first took place "sixteen weeks ago" and shows Shanna the She-Devil returning to the home she shares with her husband Ka-Zar and finding the place ransacked and no one home. Throughout this story, there's never an indication of what happened to their son, Adam Plunder.

The second flashback, "fifteen days ago", shows Colleen Wing returning to the office that she shares with Misty Knight to find that Misty has gone after Iron Fist (to the Savage Land).

And then the third, "fourteen hours ago", shows Phoebe Marrs also heading to the Antarctic. In the present, she finds Namorita and Carrie Alexander waiting in an Atlantean vessel in the sea and joins them, and the three head into the Savage Land since it's been more than a day since Namor went in without them.

Namor is being held by Ward Meachum, tied to some tent poles and surrounded by some portable heaters to dry him out and drain his strength. It's not said why Namor hasn't just been killed, but it is noted that that was a point of debate between Ward and "Iron Fist". The heaters turn out to not be strong enough to sap Namor's strength, so he breaks free and fights the Fist. Namor takes note of Danny's comparisons to the Fantastic Four's Thing.

Namor is later struck from behind after Iron Fist is seen reaching behind a rock.

Namorita arrives to punch Iron Fist off a cliff.

But Fist is found by Misty Knight, and he convinces her to join him.

For issue #17, we cut away to the United Nations, where Joy Meachum is introducing Ka-Zar as the rightful ruler of the Savage Land.

The Savage Land is part of Antarctica, and is therefore technically protected by an international charter preventing the exploitation of that continent. The use of (a hypnotized) Ka-Zar is to allow Rand-Meachum to circumvent that charter. This seems to be a very elaborate contingency on the part of the person that is posing as Iron Fist, because as we'll see, "Iron Fist's" scheme is very nearly complete, and it's all been accomplished without any interference from the UN or anyone else. In fact if it wasn't for the fact that Namor was called to Atlantis because of Lady Dorma, it seems it would have went off without a hitch (and our planet would have been destroyed). So getting the legal rights to exploit the Savage Land seems extraneous. I'll also note that we saw in New Mutants #98 that Roxxon seems to be leasing land in the Savage Land for oil extraction. Also, in Uncanny X-Men #275, Russian soldiers tried to convince Zaladane to get herself acknowledged as the ruler of the Savage Land. That didn't come to pass, and Zaladane was killed, but it goes to show that Ka-Zar might not really be the undisputed ruler of the Savage Land. I could imagine Brain Child staking a claim, for example, or maybe there are Savage Land tribes that don't recognize anyone else's authority. I don't know what the process is for the United Nations to recognize someone as the ruler of a state, but i imagine it is a lengthy and involved process, and the point is that the timing of all of this seems off, since "Iron Fist's" plan is about to come to fruition anyway. It's also a weird use of Ka-Zar, who never gets to contribute to the story, and there are hints that there was something more to Ka-Zar's behavior than mere hypnotism, but that isn't explored further.

Anyway, Namor has been captured but not killed again, and he and Namorita and Carrie Alexander are imprisoned. They discuss the fact that Iron Fist is supposed to be dead, and when he was alive he was a good guy, although i have to admit i didn't know that he was having intercourse with the X-Men.

Shanna shows up at Namor's cage, but she's unable to help bend the bars. So Namor has her locate the Griffin.

By utilizing the Griffin's strength, Shanna is able to help free the prisoners. They then get to work fighting the guards at the facility. That includes Carrie Alexander, who has apparently been trained in using automatic weapons and has no compunction about shooting people.

Phoebe Marrs was not imprisoned with the others. She was instead brought to Ward Meachum's tent, where he threatens to get violent and rape-y.

Misty Knight walks in on him and stops him from hitting Phoebe. So Ward starts gloating to her about how he's going to be made a king of a planet and given a beautiful woman as a queen.

"Iron Fist" walks in at that point and reveals that he's really the Super-Skrull.

Misty is distraught by this, since she was hoping that Danny really was alive again. But she takes hope in the fact that the Super-Skrull seemed to know things about Iron Fist that he could only have known if he had access to the original. That won't be explored more until the next set of issues (#21-25).

The Skrull melts Misty's gun and goes to join the battle happening outside Ward's tent.

After knocking out Namorita, the Super-Skrull is content to stand around and explain his plan. And he's even willing to let Namor leave (which Namor declines). The Skrull used his hypnotic powers to take over Rand-Meachum to gain access to their resources so that he could unearth the Nuwali equipment, which he plans to use to melt the ice covering Antartica, triggering a chain reaction that will cause volcanic explosions and eventually destroy the Earth, resulting in the "end of this planet as any sort of threat to the Skrulls". Destroying the world is a pretty generic super-villain plot, and a lot of readers write in to complain about this use of the Super-Skrull after the more nuanced depiction of the character as an honorable being in Steve Englehart's Silver Surfer run. John Byrne responds to one letter saying that "it's my personal opinion that some comics are starting to get a little bit swamped with villains who have noble and uplifting motives", and then, in a response to what seems to have been a flood of additional complaints:

A number of readers have written to scold me for my portrayal of the Super Skrull in NAMOR. This, they say, is not the noble, valiant warrior seen in recent issues of THE SILVER SURFER. To this I can only respond: Yer darn tootin' it ain't! One of the best things about writing Marvel comics is the freedom creators are given to explore all the avenues of a character's personality. In THE SILVER SURFER we have seen a side of the Super Skrull never before revealed. Fine. In my story I chose to play the Skrull as he had been for some twenty-five years before that. This does not invalidate the SURFER story, and the SURFER story does not invalidate mine. People - even aliens, presumably - behave differently in different circumstances. Nuff said?

I think it's fair enough as far as it goes. In the Silver Surfer, the Super-Skrull was portrayed as a noble hero to his own people, and that nobility did extend to allies of the Skrulls during their war with the Kree. But the Skrulls have plenty of reason to dislike humans and want them out of the picture, and having failed to capture Rick Jones in Hulk #374-375 he may very well have decided, or been given orders, to destroy the planet. It does seem kind of contradictory that he's destroying the planet while Lyja Laserfist is playing a long game over in Fantastic Four, but that's less a characterization problem than a cross book coordination issue (and as a sleeper agent, her plans may not have been known to the Super-Skrull).

If nothing else, let us at least enjoy our Super-Skrull fight.

With dinosaurs for extra flavor!

During the fight, Phoebe Marrs reminds Ward Meachum that the "beautiful" queen that he's been promised is actually a Skrull, and that they may very well have a different idea of beauty (note also the suggestion that Iron Fist and the Super-Skrull have crossed swords before, something that we haven't seen but which is part of the upcoming retcon in the next arc).

Any comic book nerd worth their collection is going "Yeah, but shapeshifter!", but that doesn't occur to Ward, so he decides to betray the Super-Skrull just as his Earth-destroying device is about to be activated.

Ward is burnt dead, and the Super-Skrull flees. Namor says that he'll alert the Avengers about him, and decides to return to Atlantis. And for the final irony, we learn that Ward's intended bride wasn't too bad looking even in her natural form.

That's the Super-Skrull/Savage Land plot. As i mentioned, we'll be exploring more about Iron Fist in the next arc. Before that, though, we have to get back to the Lady Dorma mystery. And before that, let me cover two subplots.

One subplot shows Plantman getting a strange cake in prison.

We later see him acquiring a mansion with a greenhouse, and hanging out with some H'ylthri from Iron Fist's home dimension.

This will of course tie in with the upcoming continuation of the Iron Fist story, as does the fact that Tyrone King resurfaces.

Another subplot shows Desmond Marrs so desperate to make money after the corporate attacks from Stark Enterprises that he's getting involved in the drug business...

...and that attracts the attention of the Punisher.

Later, Caleb Alexander, who is technically second in command at Namor's Oracle company, confronts Desmond about the fact that he's been selling off all of Oracle's holdings. Desmond responds by beating him relentlessly.

Then issue #19 opens with Spitfire looking over some Golden Age Namor comics.

In addition to the commentary on the racism, note that Spitfire says that they don't represent what "really" happened and uses the fact that the Invaders (who of course weren't invented at the time those comics were published) aren't mentioned as proof.

We're then treated, if that's the right word, to a scene of Spitfire trying on new clothes. Remember that she is an old woman, having been around since World War II, but she was recently de-aged into the body of a sixteen year old. So being invited to oogle at her sixteen year old body is a little weird.

Granted there's nothing seriously exploitative about this scene (except that it is given space at all), and one assumes that the target audience included teenage boys. But i wonder if there's also an idea that even though she's in a teenager's body, she's still an "adult" because she's mentally mature, so that makes it "ok" for the adults in the audience as well.

Anway, Spitfire's fashion show in interrupted by Oracle employees that think it is strange that Caleb Alexander is still in Desmond's office (even though he went in two issues ago, it's only been "two hours", which is a good indication of how decompressed this story is). So Spitfire enters the room and finds Caleb's body.

Meanwhile, the Punisher catches up with Desmond...

...and watches as he commits suicide.

So there goes any chance of Namor confronting Desmond after he finds out that he's been manipulated by him.

When Phoebe finds out about his death, she's not exactly sad.

If that's how she feels about it, she could have saved everyone a lot of trouble if she hadn't stopped Desmond from committing suicide in the first place in Namor #1.

The Punisher then approaches Phoebe, but that's the last we'll see of him in this series.

As for Lady Dorma, she turns out to be a clone created by an Atlantean geneticist named Vyrra who was banished from Atlantis by Namor's grandfather.

Vyrra has appeared previously (or will appear) in the continuity insert Marvel: The Lost Generation. He's responsible for the origin of Mako, one of the First Line characters. In this story, Vyrra was hoping to earn the right to be buried in Atlantis, but disturbing the tomb of Dorma was clearly not the right way to do that (let alone the fact that Namor currently isn't even the ruler of Atlantis). But the real revelation is about Namorita. It turns out that she is also a creation of Vyrra's. Her "mother", Namora, was in fact sterile due to the fact that she is a hybrid. And i suppose Byrne is implying the same about Namor, which brings back questions about Marrina's Plodex children; in fact i wouldn't be surprised if the conversation went like this after Byrne was shown Alpha Flight #78: "No, those can't be Namor's kids." "Well, why not?" "Uh, because Namor is a hybrid, so he can't have kids." "What about Namorita?" "Ok, I better write a story about that."

Anyway, Namora was sterile, but it was a dishonor to her husband Talan that they didn't have kids. So when she stumbled upon Vyrra in exile, she convinced him to create a clone of her...

...with a few modifications so that they wouldn't be identical, and to activate her vestigial ankle wings.

Namorita doesn't take the news very well, especially since clones are illegal in Atlantis. But Namor (who has known all along) keeps the information secret from the other Atlanteans, and convinces Namorita that despite being a clone she is a real person, using the fact that the robot Human Torch proved himself to be truly human as an example.

So that's it. As i said, the final two issues are less a story and more a lot of exposition, but it's an interesting development. And there are a lot of other elements in these issues that seem truncated, from the almost incidental uses of Ka-Zar and the Punisher to the fact that the Marrs storyline is resolved without any involvement by Namor (and only background involvement by Tony Stark, for that matter), to the pretty mundane and stretched out plot by the Super-Skrull. Despite all of this, it's a fun set of issues with a lot of "classic Byrne" moments, in the art and in the fights, in the twist with the Skrull Queen, and even in the casual way in which the retcons are delivered.

One additional random factoid. In this series, Atlanteans are always shown to be communicating via thought bubbles, an acknowledgement that they can't really be speaking underwater and which i thought might indicate that they actually use a form of telepathy.

But it's actually established that the Atlantean language is a series of clicks and throbbing tones, i guess like whales and dolphins.

Statement of Ownership Total Paid Circulation: Average of Past 12 months = 208,975. Single issue closest to filing date = 167,200.

Quality Rating: B+

Historical Significance Rating: 2 - revelation that Namorita is a clone of Namora

Chronological Placement Considerations: There are two separate, but related, main stories in this entry. #15-18 deal with the Sub-Mariner's visit to the Savage Land. But he was doing that because he was investigating the pollution affecting Atlantis while he was dealing with the Dorma clone issue, and he returns to the Dorma plot for #19-20. The two stories must take place in quick succession thanks to the subplot with Desmond Marrs and Caleb Alexander, since only "two hours" pass between Caleb entering Desmond's office in issue #17 and Spitfire being called to find out why they've been in there for so long in #19 (although "three days" pass between the flashbacks and main story of issue #20). All of this must take place before New Warriors #14, when Namorita is injured by Sea Urchin. New Warriors #14 takes place during Namor #21, which spans a long period of time and begins a storyline that ends with Namor going missing for six months. Misty Knight is shown in this storyline missing an arm, since her bionic arm was shattered by the Iron Fist/Super-Skrull in Namor #10. She has her arm back without fanfare in the next arc (#21-25). I'm placing Misty's appearance in Deathlok #2-5, where she starts off with a bionic arm but loses it and then gets a new one, between Namor #20-21.

References:

• Lady Dorma was killed by Llyra in Sub-Mariner #36-37 (no footnote, but there is a two page flashback).
  
• Captain America was appointed Namor's probation officer in Namor #13.
  
• Iron Fist seemingly died in Power Man & Iron Fist #125. It's also said that Iron Fist was acting weird even before his death, ever since his return from K'un-Lun after Power Man & Iron Fist #120.
  
• We saw that Tony Stark has been retaliating against the Marrs Corp in Iron Man #269.
  
• Spitfire was rejuvenated in Namor #12.
  
• Shanna the She-Devil found that Ka-Zar was missing after she returned home from Africa in Marvel Comics Presents #68-77, but that was said to be "sixteen weeks ago".

Crossover: N/A

Continuity Insert? N

My Reprint: N/A

On the page with Spitfire and the comics the SUB-MARINER issue is the one Johnny reads in FANTASTIC FOUR #4. The CAPTAIN AMERICA one might be a reference too, but I don't know it.

The splash of "Iron Fist" holding Namorita up by her hair seems to be modelled after the cover of MS. MARVEL #15.

kinda weird seeing Byrne do a gimmicky Punisher cameo. He's usally above that sort of thing.

This storyline is another reason why the Illumimati plot doesn't work- the plot hinges on Tony not having told Namor that Desmond is evil, which is believable if the Illuminati doesn't exist but completely falls apart if Namor and Tony are working together in the Illuminati.
"i have to admit i didn't know that he was having intercourse with the X-Men."- Byrne seems to think that Namor's speech should be archaic in some ways, like using intercourse to mean conversation. I can see the logic in that.
Re: Desmond's remarks about Phoebe's fairy tales- Byrne is on the book for another year and a half and there's no evidence that Phoebe's story is false. You'd think if that was his intention, then he'd have been clearer- "Phoebe, you lied to him about your child".
I wonder if Byrne's editors felt the need to clarify when the Shanna story in Marvel Comics Presents was happening.

Very fun story with the Super Skrull, but I agree with the weaknesses FNORD12 talked about.

The resolution of the Desmond Marrs story is so abrupt and out of left field. It seems like Byrne knew it wasn't working out as he originally intended and therefore decided to end it. That's too bad. I think Desmond should have stayed around much like J Jonah Jameson did. More a villain, than a foil, but he essentially could play the same role - someone too legitimate to be taken down by normal means, and therefore could do all the bizarre stuff Jameson did in his worst depictions (fund the Scorpion, Spider-Slayers, etc.).

The clone revelation likewise didn't lead to anything new.

I think Byrne intended the corporate intrigue and environmental themes to be more prominent, but didn't know how to pull it off right. It's too bad because done correctly, they could have added to the book.

The Namorita revelation has consequences in New Warriors.

Odd that the Iron Fist guise shown here is colored brown instead of green. Particularly when we see that Namorita wears green normally. I wonder if there was a significance to that. Maybe it is just camouflage of sorts?

The Marrs siblings were too caricatural from the get go, yet oddly underdeveloped. Hints of weird arrangements with Headhunter, of a particularly unhealthy relationship between the two... they are a bit too disfunctional to be taken seriously, to the point that Byrne himself prefered to show them in a cameo and then use one of their underlings as Iron Man's enemy in the concurrent stories. Desmond is just too impulsive, too lacking in self-control to cover his own tracks, as the Caleb scene shows clearly. He is not only not a mover and shaker, he is not even henchman material. Phoebe is more mature and stable, but that is faint praise.

The two of them could make for good stories, but there would need to be a lot more development and focus on their fragile psyches for that to happen. Instead, they have been increasingly treated as background characters, almost tragicomical relief.

"Then issue #10 opens with Spitfire looking over some Golden Age Namor comics."

I take it that you mean #20.

In agreement in regards to the decompression. These stories should have been truncated to allow for a better establishment of the erzatz Iron Fist reveal.

I went back and read the various postings in regards to the alternate ways that IF could have been returned...it really is too bad that Roger Stern was given the bum's rush. Maybe we could have been spared that utterly awful Cage series. Dwayne Turner's art aside, it was just awful.

I've been trying to figure out the image on the CAPTAIN AMERICA cover.

The logo is based on the one from CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS, but I think the image is based on the cover of TALES OF SUSPENSE #94. Cap is on the left and has just hit the figure on the right, who is recoiling from the blow.

Cap's legs are positioned as on TOS #94, but I think he's holding his shield in front of his torso and his right arm is stretched up and forward with his hand forming a fist (as on CAPTAIN AMERICA #100).

I think the figure on the right is a comic image of Hitler, with his body bent double and his face turned toward the camera.

Cap has either hit him with the back of his fist or rammed him with his shield. Behind them there's the entrance to a tunnel.

Interesting comment from Luis. To me, the Iron Fist disguise looks black with green highlights, which I took to mean it's really dark green. But what's interesting is that Byrne is red-green colorblind and has said in past interviews that he originally thought Iron Fist's costume was brown. Was Byrne doing his own coloring on some of these issues?

On all these issues, Glynis Oliver-Wein is the colorist except for issue #20, which is by Michael Thomas (and which doesn't feature any one in an Iron Fist costume). The quality of the scans may be part of the problem; in the actual comic, Iron Fist's costume is an olive green (i.e. a green with more brown in it) while Namorita's is a lighter green. There is heavy use of black shading on Iron Fist's costume as well.

The thing about the being promised a good looking queen by an alien always reminded me of some Silver Age story I'd read as a kid with the same idea, hopefully someone with greater knowledge than me can tell me which one Byrne's referencing here.

"But i wonder if there's also an idea that even though she's in a teenager's body, she's still an "adult" because she's mentally mature, so that makes it "ok" for the adults in the audience as well."

Apparently the writers of thought so, fnord12 (Google "Arisia" and you'll know what i mean.)

The implications that Namor is also sterile as a hybrid doesn't make sense, since he DOES have children (even outside the Plodex ones.) One of them was a major plotline for his post-Civil-War comic. (Also, was Nicieza given prior knowledge of this revelation for his main character? It seems like there was a big lack of communication between the book sharing the same character.)

Jonathan, i don't know about the past, but the odd thing is that Byrne DOES recycle that premise for an issue of She-Hulk.

Hey fnord, I happened to notice that Misty Knight isn't tagged for these issues.

Thanks Erik.

Are there any alien races in the Marvel universe where the males are stunningly handsome and the females are ugly? Really that seems to be the case with most aliens in comic books and movies actually.

I read these issues in real time, and I have many of the same thoughts regarding them as Fnord. It seemed very odd that the Punisher would show up and drive Desmond Marrs to suicide, without Namor having any interaction with this subplot. And then the Punisher has "things to discuss" with Phoebe, but we never find out about what, and it doesn't seem to have any impact going forward.

I really wonder where Byrne was going with all this. It would lead to Phoebe apparently being haunted by her brother's ghost, but Byrne left the book before he could resolve that, along with a few other plotlines. Looking back on it, this was the point where the loose ends started to accumulate.

Byrne has said Phoebe was just supposed to be crazy.Unfortunately, like with DeWitt, he wasn't clear that there wasn't supposed to be more to it, so later writers came up with an explanation he never had in mind.

Oh, so in other words this was another case of Byrne thinking believing that he was being perfectly clear in his plotting and storytelling, while in reality most readers were left scratching their heads.

I was wondering today absently if Ka-Zar and Punisher had ever met, so I used the two-character search to check the years that fnord has covered hitherto. Alas, I only found this false positive.

It'll happen in the late 90s, Ka-Zar v2 issues 15 and 16. I remember the cover with Kazar's eyes bandaged and a big Punisher symbol behind him a la Spider-Man.

There are probably other stances published, but the plot of luring a human with the promise of a beautiful alien bride, with the complication of alien conceptions of beauty, is featured in Marvel's Amazing Adult Fantasy #8, "The Coming of the Krills". Gene Colan redrew it in the late 1960s for Silver Surfer #2.